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11th January 2020, 01:10 | #2001 | Link |
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Xhe-aac didn't steal anything. The biggest video platform YouTube uses opus not he-aac. Second. We no longer live in 56k modem era to care that much about audio compression. 64kbps opus already sounds better than old MP3 128kbps joint-stereo. I really do not care If xhe-aac will achieve the same quality at even lower bitrate (48kbps). The same can be seen with image compression. Ancient jpg is still good enough and file size is not a problem when you have at least 1Mbps connection
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11th January 2020, 03:51 | #2002 | Link | |
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In less developed countries the problem is even worse still, so even a few dozen kilobits still count. The coming satellite broadband internet solutions will likely diminish the problem somewhat globally, but even then the content providers are still thinking in terms of millions to billions of served video and audio streams/files per day - from which even 64 kbps will accumulate quickly, so they will continue to push the advancement in compression on all fronts too, simply to reduce what they have to pay for serving their content. |
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11th January 2020, 05:46 | #2003 | Link | |
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The xiph site called "Monty's Demo Pages" has an article about a "Real-Time Wideband Neural Vocoder at 1.6 kb/s Using LPCNet", I think done by JM Valin who also worked on Daala and AV1. Link here. Whether this turns into anything concrete is uncertain, but it is certainly interesting. |
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11th January 2020, 12:13 | #2004 | Link | |
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11th January 2020, 20:26 | #2005 | Link | ||
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xHE-AAC is very low bitrate format and it doesn't present any advantage at 96 kbps and higher comparing to an old LC-AAC. (go check official MPEG tests). Quote:
https://ispspeedindex.netflix.com/country/india/ Somebody saying that xHE-AAC is gaining market fast and letting another audio formats in dust, it isn't just not true. It's a bald-face lie. Companies don't want to pay for low bitrate xHE-AAC license simply because LC-AAC patents have expired and they don't need to stream 32-48 kbps where xHE-AAC would make sense. Spotify (web app), Tidal , Apple Music, Netflix, they all don't need to pay anymore for LC-AAC licensing. xHE-AAC was developed 7 years ago. Since then it has faced stiff competition from Opus and patent expiration of MP3, LC-AAC, Dolby Digital AC3 formats. Today it belongs same place as another failed audio format, MPEG Surround, which hasn't seen any meaningful adoption. Last edited by IgorC; 11th January 2020 at 20:31. |
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11th January 2020, 23:04 | #2006 | Link |
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xhe-aac is just another variant optimized for speech
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yArrLvMYng8
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13th January 2020, 21:09 | #2007 | Link | |
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If you're talking rural mobile delivery, saving 16 Kbps from audio really does make a material difference. This is why lower speed mobile in developing countries might be one of the most viable markets for AV1, since it truly is a lot better than H.264 for very low bitrates. Of course, that is dependent on getting performant SW decoders or HW decoders on low-cost devices. Which often run an ASOP derivative versus actual Google-endorsed Android with all those requirements. If we see low-cost chipsets with HW AV1 become ubiquitous, that would be a big market that has rapid turnover for new models. |
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13th January 2020, 21:24 | #2008 | Link | ||||||
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Obviously Netflix customers are pre-selected as people who have enough bandwidth to stream Netflix. Quote:
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MPEG-H is really an Atmos/AC-4 competitor, though; not for low bitrate stereo. I see it growing a lot in living room devices, less in North America than in Asia. |
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13th January 2020, 21:29 | #2009 | Link | |
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The big difference is that it fits into the existing audio codec and MPEG ecosystems better. Not that Opus had any fundamental technical reasons why it couldn't, but there just weren't proponents pushing for it the same way and with the same resources. Web/PC oriented technologies can innovate quickly and powerfully, but it's way harder to migrate from there to consumer electronics and living room than people imagine. Same reason why VP8/9 never had much traction outside of user generated content on the web. Premium content interoperable across all material endpoints requires a huge, huge effort from many, many stakeholders. |
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13th January 2020, 21:35 | #2010 | Link | |
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More advanced codecs like HEVC, VP9, AV1, Opus, xHE-AAC won't bring possibility to use services like Netflix or Spotify on 2G or 3G as such limited speeds and, most importantly, traffic cap make these services hardly affordable for people with low incomes in developing countries. Also there is no terrific difference bettween speed of developed/developing countries https://ispspeedindex.netflix.com/ It doesn't support your theory of 2G in developing countries. |
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13th January 2020, 21:53 | #2011 | Link | |
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Not to even mention about Electricity...
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13th January 2020, 22:24 | #2012 | Link |
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@Atak_Snajpera
+1 How does it change the fact that MPEG Surround hasn't seen meaningful adoption? MPEG Surround is standard since 2007 as MPEG-H is since 2015. So a period of supplantation took 8 years (?) Ben, really? |
13th January 2020, 22:48 | #2013 | Link | |
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Is AC-4 the coding scheme for all Atmos? Or is that just for web streams using Atmos? |
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14th January 2020, 01:04 | #2014 | Link |
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Is this a topic about AV1? I'm not sure I'm at the right forum.
Perhaps some people want to continue here: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?board=54.0 ;-) |
14th January 2020, 10:17 | #2015 | Link | |||
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skal/ |
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14th January 2020, 17:21 | #2016 | Link | ||
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You will find people in very remote places with no water and no electricity but with phones. Not necessarily smartphones, but with an access to 2G/3G/4G. It's widely used to communicate, send money and other stuff. There are small, cheap solar panels to easily charge these phones. Also, a part of the internet is free. Depending on your ISP, you'll have free access to Facebook, Wikipedia and other sites. Most of the time, there are restrictions like no images or no videos. Believe me, there are many many young people who will just buy some credit/data as soon as they have money. They won't buy food or water because these people don't buy food or water. They grow their own food and fetch water at the well or the river. Pocket money is mostly for entertainment so they will buy cigarettes, candies or whatever. Anyway, back on topic. In the big cities, you have great connections. I'm working 160km South from the capital city and I have 4G+. But as soon as you leave the biggest area, you end up with 2G and sometimes no network at all. And people love streaming here. Well, they have no TV, no newspaper, no nothing. But they have a phone and an access to internet. Of course they want to see pictures and watch videos. Not Netflix of course, but Facebook is absolutely huge, Youtube is not very important here. The real problem here is the cost of the data. It's damn expensive. Browsing text can be fairly inexpensive. Images are quite expensive. Video is really a rich people thing. Personally, I'm not poor but I disable all images when I browse the internet. And I can't afford more than a few minutes of videos per week. Also, keep in mind that people don't care about quality at all. They don't want better quality for same size, they want same quality at lower bitrate, so they can save data and therefore money. So AV1 will be very very useful. Easier to stream in remote areas, less expensive, allowing better quality... Africa, South-East Asia and other areas are big markets that are growing a lot. Hardware is way behind, but apart from that it's all the same (selfie sticks, filters, nomophobia... you name it). It doesn't concern 100% of the population yet, but for the younger generation it's already a wide majority. |
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14th January 2020, 22:32 | #2017 | Link | |||
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AV1 proponents should hope this is a viable market, because it's probably where AV1 would have the biggest differential advantage over H.264 and a market where rapid turnover and Android-centric mobile markets could result in >50% HW decoder installed base by 2025. |
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15th January 2020, 03:52 | #2018 | Link | |||
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I'm a bit late on this, but I was able to confirm from a family friend with an E9 TV that the 2019 LG OLEDs already support VP9+Opus WebM files played from a USB HDD. And decoding complexity isn't always the reason for lacking format support because I was also able to confirm that, while the 2019 E9 OLED also supports VP8 + vorbis in a WebM as well as VP9 + AAC in an MKV, it does not support VP8 + AAC in an MKV. Here's the full list of tested formats and combinations that I was able to confirm that worked (all video codecs are 8bit unless otherwise noted):
And the things that didn't work (all video codecs are 8bit unless otherwise noted):
Unfortunately I didn't provide a test file that combined AVC 10bit and FLAC with other known-working codecs, like AVC 8bit + FLAC as well as AVC 10bit + AAC, so it's uncertain whether it's the AVC 10bit or the FLAC that the TV is unable to play back (though this logic doesn't apply to the MKV with VP8 + AAC as it's able to support all 3 things in other combinations, just not together). EDIT: I've since confirmed that FLAC audio is in fact supported (at least up to 192KHz 24bit, same goes for LPCM as 32float LPCM failed to work) and, as expected, it's the 10bit AVC (not a typo) that is completely unsupported on LG's 2019 OLEDs. ...though more surprising to me was that it not only supported multi-audio MKVs/MP4s with an according GUI-based audio track switcher, but even supported freaking SubStation Alpha subtitles in an MKV also with an according GUI-based toggle.
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15th January 2020, 23:52 | #2019 | Link | |
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Something that works on a thing is easy. Something interesting that works on EVERYTHING is a nail-biting adventure. |
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17th January 2020, 10:12 | #2020 | Link |
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new rav1e build is out: https://github.com/xiph/rav1e/releases/tag/p20200115
Last edited by hajj_3; 17th January 2020 at 10:15. |
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