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Old 6th December 2008, 12:06   #1  |  Link
moviefan
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settings for BD9 (Blu-ray compliant HD stream on DVD9)

Hi guys,

I've searched the forum a lot and read various threads dealing with that topic, but could not come to a clear conclusion what settings comply to the Blu-ray standard for HD content on regular red laser DL-DVDs. (not AVCHD)

What I concluded is that the general encoding settings are the same as for HD content on BD-R(E) media, but the max. bitrate and the buffer seem to be different, apparently because of the lower data transfer rate of DVDs. Also, I'm not absolutely sure about the number of reference frames allowed. Sometimes I read 2, sometimes 3, sometimes 4... And are options like b-pyramid allowed? What I know is that I have so set --nal-hrd and --aud to be compliant + Level 4.1 obviously.

I would very much appreciate if someone could post the maximum quality settings the specs allow for BD9 video streams, so that they work on the PS3 as well as on SA BD-players. Oh, and multiple audio tracks would be nice...

Regards,
moviefan

Last edited by moviefan; 6th December 2008 at 13:19.
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Old 6th December 2008, 13:38   #2  |  Link
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Hi,

@moviefan:
BD9 is a BD on DVD disc with 3X data rate transfer.
On BD specification Rom2 part3, BD9 is like all BD format (on BD disc)
encrypted in AACS (only Rom Mark is not mandatory).

AVCHD and BD9 have same restriction for bitrate and vbv. The big difference are than AVCHD,
because CamCorder (realtime encoding), use generally a long GoP structure.

To simplify:
AVCHD = BD on DVDR without AACS
BD9 = BD on DVD (so with AACS, there is a specific DVDRom LeadIn...)



Regards
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Old 6th December 2008, 14:33   #3  |  Link
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@Golgot13
AVCREC is the official Spec for AVC on DVD isn't it ? but ok it doesn't support Menus i think (no interactive layer) so for that BD9 seems more suited.
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Last edited by CruNcher; 6th December 2008 at 14:37.
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Old 6th December 2008, 16:13   #4  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruNcher View Post
@Golgot13
AVCREC is the official Spec for AVC on DVD isn't it ? but ok it doesn't support Menus i think (no interactive layer) so for that BD9 seems more suited.
Yes, I know about specification but you can put menu on AVCHD disc.
And I'm not sure you make lot of test on PS3: you can put BDJ title project
on HDD of PS3 to test it, but the name of folder must be AVCHD...
(today Sony lock this possibility on last firmware)
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Old 6th December 2008, 17:15   #5  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golgot13 View Post
Hi,

@moviefan:
BD9 is a BD on DVD disc with 3X data rate transfer.
On BD specification Rom2 part3, BD9 is like all BD format (on BD disc)
encrypted in AACS (only Rom Mark is not mandatory).

AVCHD and BD9 have same restriction for bitrate and vbv. The big difference are than AVCHD,
because CamCorder (realtime encoding), use generally a long GoP structure.

To simplify:
AVCHD = BD on DVDR without AACS
BD9 = BD on DVD (so with AACS, there is a specific DVDRom LeadIn...)



Regards

1) Long GOP (2 sec max) is possible for 1080p but only if you use max bitrate at 15 Mbps*.

2) 1 sec is not really a short GOP. There are not big difference between infinite GOP and 1 sec GOP in efficiency term for H264 (less than 10%).

3) Major quality improuvement for x264 could be open gop. In this case with 3 bframes ~1/3 frames of the GOP are potentialy directly refenced on Iframe. IDR frame could be simply for scene change.

*Table 9-25, BD specifications.
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Old 6th December 2008, 18:48   #6  |  Link
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So an HD video with e.g. 2 audio tracks is only BD9, if I have AACS encryption active? Sounds weird... So are you sure that BD9 = AVCHD/AVCREC with AACS? I believe to have read in one big thread here about this topic that AVCHD only supports 1 audio track. What I want is simply the following: 1 video stream in 1080p encoded with x264, >1 audio streams, no menu. What are the correct values for max. bitrate and VBV buffer then to comply to the BD9 specs? And please explicitly state the max. refs and max. b-frames to be sure.

Cheers for you help so far!
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Old 6th December 2008, 20:05   #7  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moviefan View Post
So an HD video with e.g. 2 audio tracks is only BD9, if I have AACS encryption active? Sounds weird... So are you sure that BD9 = AVCHD/AVCREC with AACS? I believe to have read in one big thread here about this topic that AVCHD only supports 1 audio track. What I want is simply the following: 1 video stream in 1080p encoded with x264, >1 audio streams, no menu. What are the correct values for max. bitrate and VBV buffer then to comply to the BD9 specs? And please explicitly state the max. refs and max. b-frames to be sure.

Cheers for you help so far!
4 ref max with 3 bframes max at level 4.1 for 1080p. Anyway for coding efficiency 2 or 3 bframes are not really important.
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Old 8th December 2008, 16:05   #8  |  Link
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So if I encode a 1920x1080 video with x264 using 4 refs, 3 b-frames with --nal-hrd and --aud, --mvrange 511 etc., Level 4.1, and author it with TsMuxer to Blu-ray output (SPS/PPS and picture timing info deactivated), will this be BD9 compliant so that it works on SA Blu-ray players as well as PS3?

Is --vbv-maxrate 38000 --vbv-bufsize 30000 stated in http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=134402 correct?

Or rather --vbv-bufsize 22000 --vbv-maxrate 16000 like in http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...2#post1177652?
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Old 8th December 2008, 19:05   #9  |  Link
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i would assume the best would be if someone really knowing the stuff would post a complete sample x264 commandline for the different variants each (BD), AVCHD, AVCREC...)
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Old 8th December 2008, 19:11   #10  |  Link
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If you're authoring for PS3, it's fairly robust in what it can handle. I've used 1080p with --level 4.1 --crf 19 --keyint 1000 --ref 4 --mixed-refs --b-frames 6 --b-adapt 2 --b-pyramid and had no issues before. SAPs are the only thing you really have to be careful of.
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Old 8th December 2008, 22:26   #11  |  Link
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SAPs? Sorry, but what is that? ;-) I am aiming at encoding (and authoring) to a Blu-ray format that is completely compliant (like professional Blu-ray movies) so that I don't have to care about the decoding device as long as it complies to the Blu-ray specs. So no format for PS3 only etc., simply a compliant Blu-ray burnt on a DVD9. I agree with bond that it would be nice if someone could post a command line with some explanation about what settings can be altered for speed/quality balance at what settings are strict for compliance.
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Old 9th December 2008, 04:47   #12  |  Link
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SAP = Stand Alone Player. In other words, exactly the target you're aiming for.
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Old 9th December 2008, 13:03   #13  |  Link
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Of course, sorry, brain failure ;-) So is there someone who can post an x264 command line that complies totally to the Blu-ray specs (so for SAPs and PS3 and everything)?
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Old 9th December 2008, 13:53   #14  |  Link
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I make BD9's all the time, encoding them through AviSinth with x264. I mux them with tsMuxer, and add subs if needed, and then burn them with IMGBurn to DVD+R (DL), my process works all the time now (since my BD player accepts them correctly now since the after firmware-upgrade, I have even made one with DTS-MA ) The player i have is a Panasonic BD30, streaming the audio to a Onkyo TX SR875 for HiRez audio, all my discs have so far also worked on my friends (EU) PS3.

For encoding i sometimes use a simple command-line .BAT, but sometimes i use MeGUI. I'll give the .BAT here, comment on it if you like !

Before that i want to comment on the 3x speed that is claimed for AVCHD / BD9. I think that it has to be 2x speed in stead of 3x speed. If i go higher, my player starts stuttering. Also i have discussed this subject before (with a.o. DS / Sagittaire and jdobbs in the " BD rebuilder & BD backup" tread in the DVD rebuilder part of this forum). There seems to be a difference of opinion, even between several sites that have all the specifications listed (2x vs. 3x). My experience gives that 2x works all the time, going higher gives problems sometimes.

EDIT: I tried starting a thread where all info about the AVCHD / BD could be centralized, but i never took off (too bad: We see separate thread concerning this popping up in all parts of the forum now). Anyway, the TS i made there contains a lot of useful links to/from information about this subject. See the thread here, and maybe we can put some more info there as well click

Quote:
Originally Posted by G_M_C
I use this short .BAT for encoding;

I Use a keyframe-interval of max 1 second (so keyframe-interval == framerate, rounded off), min-keyint=1.

@SET IN_TITLE="........"
@SET IN_BITRATE= .....
@set IN_EXTRA= (Extra options, for instance --zones 0,128800,b=1/128801,140153,b=0.5, not between "")

@Echo off
Echo .
Echo .
Echo .
Echo .[ %IN_TITLE% ] [%TIME% ] Encoding Pass 1
Echo .
Echo .
Echo .

"path to x264.exe\x264.exe" --threads auto --thread-input --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim "%IN_TITLE%.AVS" --stats "%IN_TITLE%.stats" --output NUL --pass 1 --bitrate %IN_BITRATE% --vbv-bufsize 22000 --vbv-maxrate 16000 --level 4.1 --keyint set yourself --min-keyint 1 --nal-hrd --aud --sar 1:1 --bframes 3 --b-adapt 2 --b-pyramid --weightb --ref 3 --mixed-refs --no-fast-pskip --ipratio 1.2 --pbratio 1.2 --direct auto --subme 2 --trellis 2 --psy-rd 0.8:0.7 --partitions none --me dia --merange 24 --mvrange 511 --aq-strength 0.9 --cqmfile "path to eqm_avc_hr.cfg\eqm_avc_hr.cfg" %IN_EXTRA%


Echo .
Echo .
Echo .
Echo .[ %IN_TITLE% ] [%TIME% ] Encoding Pass 2
Echo .
Echo .
Echo .


"path to x264.exe\x264.exe" --threads auto --thread-input --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim "%IN_TITLE%.AVS" --stats "%IN_TITLE%.stats" --output "%IN_TITLE%.264" --pass 2 --bitrate %IN_BITRATE% --vbv-bufsize 22000 --vbv-maxrate 16000 --level 4.1 --keyint set yourself --min-keyint 1 --nal-hrd --aud --sar 1:1 --bframes 3 --b-adapt 2 --b-pyramid --weightb --ref 3 --mixed-refs --no-fast-pskip --ipratio 1.2 --pbratio 1.2 --direct auto --subme 9 --trellis 2 --psy-rd 0.8:0.7 --partitions all --8x8dct --me umh --merange 24 --mvrange 511 --aq-strength 0.9 --cqmfile "path to eqm_avc_hr.cfg\eqm_avc_hr.cfg" %IN_EXTRA%

Echo .
Echo .
Echo .
Echo .[ %IN_TITLE% ] [%TIME% ] Encoding Finished !

Pause


PS: Others speak only of keyframe-interval of 24, so try with a DVD-RW to see what works best.

Last edited by G_M_C; 9th December 2008 at 14:19.
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Old 9th December 2008, 16:05   #15  |  Link
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Originally Posted by moviefan View Post
So is there someone who can post an x264 command line that complies totally to the Blu-ray specs (so for SAPs and PS3 and everything)?
Not possible, so you'll need to find someone you trust e.g. G_M_C or jdobbs etc. and go with their command lines. Not only are there (sometimes wildly) different opinions about compliance, it's my understanding that some of the BD specs are in a way being Guessed-At, i.e. at least one or two of the "BD-compliance" options are assumed, based upon examination of the settings & output of so-called "professional mastering applications".

So make some x264 movies and get them to play for you. If you want/need/insist they be "universally playable" then a mod here might challenge you to explain why, as in most countries sharing-or-selling copyrighted material is illegal, or at least unethical!
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Old 9th December 2008, 20:06   #16  |  Link
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Quote:
Before that i want to comment on the 3x speed that is claimed for AVCHD / BD9. I think that it has to be 2x speed in stead of 3x speed. If i go higher, my player starts stuttering. Also i have discussed this subject before (with a.o. DS / Sagittaire and jdobbs in the " BD rebuilder & BD backup" tread in the DVD rebuilder part of this forum). There seems to be a difference of opinion, even between several sites that have all the specifications listed (2x vs. 3x). My experience gives that 2x works all the time, going higher gives problems sometimes.
- Now x264 have really better vbv support. Set simply max bitrate at 3x your max bitrate (it's enought in vaste majority of case) with 24 Mbps limit for BD9 (you must mux audio too ... DVD3x is for complete video/audio/sub mux and m2ts mux is not really optimal).

- GOP must be at 1 sec if you use max bitrate > 15 Mbps and 2 sec for max bitrate < 15 Mbps (24 or 48 frames for 1080p24).
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Last edited by Sagittaire; 9th December 2008 at 20:08.
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Old 9th December 2008, 20:19   #17  |  Link
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So "video max bitrate + audio < 24 Mbps" for BD9 correct? Actually: VBV max bitrate = 24 Mbps - total audio bitrate?

Last edited by moviefan; 9th December 2008 at 20:21.
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Old 9th December 2008, 21:07   #18  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moviefan View Post
So "video max bitrate + audio < 24 Mbps" for BD9 correct? Actually: VBV max bitrate = 24 Mbps - total audio bitrate?
Not exactly ...

DVD1x = 10.08 Mbps
DVD3x = 30.24 Mbps

With 24 Mbps for video you have 6,24 Mbps for other stream (PCM, DD, DTS, TrueHD and subtitles). For BD9 overall bitrates are generaly at 6-8 Mbps and 24 Mbps for max bitrate is 3:1 ratio (generaly good for this overall bitrate).
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Old 9th December 2008, 22:48   #19  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Sagittaire View Post
Not exactly ...

DVD1x = 10.08 Mbps
DVD3x = 30.24 Mbps

With 24 Mbps for video you have 6,24 Mbps for other stream (PCM, DD, DTS, TrueHD and subtitles). For BD9 overall bitrates are generaly at 6-8 Mbps and 24 Mbps for max bitrate is 3:1 ratio (generaly good for this overall bitrate).
Funny you would jump-in here Sagittaire (thanks for this), I was going to refer moviefan to your thread here for addt'l good info on BR compatibility!
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Old 9th December 2008, 23:02   #20  |  Link
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So to exhaust the given boundaries for Blu-ray compatibility, could I calculate the VBV max bitrate with

VBV max bitrate = 30.24 Mbps - total audio bitrate?
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