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Old 13th August 2009, 10:52   #61  |  Link
kolak
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x264's one weakness there would be Open GOP support, I suppose. However, with Level 4.0, you're allowed a 2 second GOP as opposed to the 1 second with 4.1, which can offer another efficiency boost. 25 Mbps Level 4.0 with 2 sec max GOP and single slice likely would outperform 26 Mbps Level 4.1 with a 1 sec max GOP and 4-way slicing.
You can have 2 seconds GOPs only if bitarte (max bitrate) is lower than 15Mbit and this does work with 4.1 level also.


Andrew

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Old 13th August 2009, 14:38   #62  |  Link
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You can have 2 seconds GOPs only if bitarte (max bitrate) is smaller than 15Mbit and this does work with 4.1 level also.
Right, sorry. Conflating two different parameters there.

However, 15 Mbps peak + 2 sec GOP could be a compelling option for trying to get long-form content on DVD-5/6 media where the ABR is low enough that PBR isn't going to make it that high anyway, and you're more worried about overall efficiency.
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Old 13th August 2009, 14:40   #63  |  Link
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I don't have problems to fill up BD50 up to 99%
Usually they're about 90-95% full. Hollywood studios seem to have problems with this, even if calculator is a part of Windows
There's always last-minute changes in extras that can use up extra capacity. So the compressionist might target only 90% disc capacity in the disc budget to allow for some extra movie trailers or that Icelandic audio track without having to reencode everything.
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Old 13th August 2009, 14:45   #64  |  Link
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Ben, have you seen this (check mouseover):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1169645


It's quite ineteresting how VC-1 puts relatively more bits into B frames than AVC encode (even if AVC encode has much highier average bitrate many B frames form VC-1 are bigger).
The default behavior from EEv3 and other tools is to have B-frames use a QP 0-2 higher than its reference frames, based on the amount of motion in the video. But CineVision PSE allows this to be overridden per-segment.
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Old 13th August 2009, 15:29   #65  |  Link
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1. 30Mbit buffer and 24Mbit for maxrate.
2. Double yes.
3. 24Mbit buffer, 24Mbit maxrate, quite many resolutions, up to 60p, no- you can use level 4.1 if you need to.
4. There are special restricion in case of BD5/9. Disc read rate is limited to about 30Mbit, so there are bigger restrictions.


Andrew
Thanks

So here is 100% Blu-Ray compatible x264 settings

* Level 4.0
* VBV-maxrate: 24000
* VBV-bufsize: 30000
* no b-pyramid
* no multiple slices required
* ref: 4
* bframes: 3
* min-keyint: 1 or 2 (2 is recommend by authoring apps)
* keyint 24 or 18
* nal-hrd + aud option

And this is for all media BD 5/9/25/50 no exceptions.
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Old 13th August 2009, 15:45   #66  |  Link
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@shon3i: And you are sure about min-keyint 2? I thought it's only valid for max bitrate of 15 Mbps...?
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Old 13th August 2009, 16:20   #67  |  Link
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@shon3i: And you are sure about min-keyint 2? I thought it's only valid for max bitrate of 15 Mbps...?
Absolutley, aslo H264 encoders such as Sonic Cinevision, Elecard use min keyint 2 as default for bluray profiles. Aslo MeGUI BD profles aslo use 2 as min.
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Old 13th August 2009, 16:35   #68  |  Link
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@shon3i: And you are sure about min-keyint 2? I thought it's only valid for max bitrate of 15 Mbps...?
You are confusing min-keyint with keyint (which is restricted to 1 or 2 in seconds).
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Old 13th August 2009, 17:09   #69  |  Link
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The default behavior from EEv3 and other tools is to have B-frames use a QP 0-2 higher than its reference frames, based on the amount of motion in the video. But CineVision PSE allows this to be overridden per-segment.
Ben, you're the guy to ask for this: do you have any idea if the output of Expression Encoder has been used successfully in BD authoring?

Apologies if it's a silly question, but I know very little about this tool. I seem to remember trying it many years ago without luck.
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Old 13th August 2009, 18:31   #70  |  Link
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There's always last-minute changes in extras that can use up extra capacity. So the compressionist might target only 90% disc capacity in the disc budget to allow for some extra movie trailers or that Icelandic audio track without having to reencode everything.
I can understand it, but also not
90% is fine, but we have some disc from Warner with <20Mbit average bitrate and 40% empty BD50

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Old 13th August 2009, 21:50   #71  |  Link
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Guys (and gals): does anyone have any high quality video sources that you want me to test with these encoders.
By high quality I mean studio-grade, not recompressed from an existing compressed source.

So far, I'm encoding some clips from a RED ONE, as well as some scenes from "Big Buck Bunny" with a grain layer added on top (I will do clips of the original noise-free version too).
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Old 13th August 2009, 21:55   #72  |  Link
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@Lyris

You could try

http://www.vuze.com/details/IK3JKDZY...rmy+Nurse.html

It's a DVCPROHD US military recruitment video (who knows why they decided to upload it raw?) - You'll need torrent access though but it is a legal video.
There are a few more raw versions like that on vuze too.

Also there's this raw - http://www.archive.org/details/Sita_Sings_the_Blues - 192GB in total (and it seems like you can't just download a part of it)
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Old 13th August 2009, 22:15   #73  |  Link
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Thanks

So here is 100% Blu-Ray compatible x264 settings

* Level 4.0
* VBV-maxrate: 24000
* VBV-bufsize: 30000
* no b-pyramid
* no multiple slices required
* ref: 4
* bframes: 3
* min-keyint: 1 or 2 (2 is recommend by authoring apps)
* keyint 24 or 18
* nal-hrd + aud option

And this is for all media BD 5/9/25/50 no exceptions.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Level 4.0 and Level 4.1 allow 5 ref frames for 1920x1080 and 9 ref frames for 1280x720?

One thing that I've noticed on my standalone Panasonic BD-35 while playing Blu-ray discs encoded with x264 is that it freezes with ref frames greater than 7 for 1280x720.
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Old 14th August 2009, 02:57   #74  |  Link
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Ben, you're the guy to ask for this: do you have any idea if the output of Expression Encoder has been used successfully in BD authoring?
I doubt very much. The VC-1 library used in EEv3 is certainly capable of BD compliant output, but EEv3 doesn't support elementary stream output, and doesn't attempt to offer BD-related control.

Carbon Coder uses the same SDK, and does correctly support BD-compliant .vc1 files.

Quote:
Apologies if it's a silly question, but I know very little about this tool. I seem to remember trying it many years ago without luck.
Maybe you were using something else? Expression Encoder is only a couple of years old now.
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Old 14th August 2009, 07:36   #75  |  Link
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Guys (and gals): does anyone have any high quality video sources that you want me to test with these encoders.
By high quality I mean studio-grade, not recompressed from an existing compressed source.
How long do you need.

I have the trailers for "The Island" and "Match Point" from Dreamworks with permission to redistribute for compression testing. I've got Lagarith 1920x1080p23.769 with 5.1 audio AVI files I could probably post somewhere.

...and that 45 minutes of 35mm "Lady Washington" source I keep thinking I'll finally be able to finish up an edit of in a couple of weeks...
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Old 14th August 2009, 12:02   #76  |  Link
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Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Level 4.0 and Level 4.1 allow 5 ref frames for 1920x1080 and 9 ref frames for 1280x720?

One thing that I've noticed on my standalone Panasonic BD-35 while playing Blu-ray discs encoded with x264 is that it freezes with ref frames greater than 7 for 1280x720.
From H264 specification by formula Int(MaxDPB * 1024 / 1.5 / (w * h)) where w=width, h=height and MaxDPB from table A-1 (H264 specs), give max 4 reference frames for 1080p with level 4.1 or 4.0, and 9 for 720p. But according Blu-Ray specs for 720p is alowed max 6 reference frames for level 4.1 or 4.0 and 4 ref frames for 1080p. Encoders such Sonic Cinevision and Elecard in their BD profiles always lock for more than 4 refs. So 4 ref, are safe value for all resolutions including SD material
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Old 14th August 2009, 17:37   #77  |  Link
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How long do you need.

I have the trailers for "The Island" and "Match Point" from Dreamworks with permission to redistribute for compression testing. I've got Lagarith 1920x1080p23.769 with 5.1 audio AVI files I could probably post somewhere.

...and that 45 minutes of 35mm "Lady Washington" source I keep thinking I'll finally be able to finish up an edit of in a couple of weeks...
That's a really great offer - if I set up an FTP account somewhere, would you be able to upload "The Island" trailer? I actually own the UK Warner HD DVD so there's a potential for comparison.
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Old 14th August 2009, 19:17   #78  |  Link
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From H264 specification by formula Int(MaxDPB * 1024 / 1.5 / (w * h)) where w=width, h=height and MaxDPB from table A-1 (H264 specs), give max 4 reference frames for 1080p with level 4.1 or 4.0, and 9 for 720p. But according Blu-Ray specs for 720p is alowed max 6 reference frames for level 4.1 or 4.0 and 4 ref frames for 1080p. Encoders such Sonic Cinevision and Elecard in their BD profiles always lock for more than 4 refs. So 4 ref, are safe value for all resolutions including SD material
H264 specification is one thing and Blu-ray one is another. It's almost obvious that BD one is going to have more restrictions.
Another thing is that quite often pro encoders have even bigger limitation than BD spec.

Andrew
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Old 14th August 2009, 19:39   #79  |  Link
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OK, a small update.

I've tried out the Dostudio Encoder - not happy with the output, especially after having been used to x264. Visible compression artefacts in just about all cases when using 35-37mbps with the test videos I used (Red One clips, and a grained version of Big Buck Bunny). I imagine it'll serve it's purpose and make an affordable pathway into BD for many smaller producers, but as an anal-retentive videophile, it gets a no from me. X264's Level 4 ~20mbps encodes are blatantly better, a great reminder (if one was needed) that bitrate isn't everything.

There does seem to be light at the end of the tunnel, though: I've been trying Mainconcept Reference and while not quite at the level of X264's quality, what it's producing is at least slightly better than the encodes I see on retail BDs. Most importantly of all, it appears to be compliant (control is given over all necessary parameters, and the BD preset seems to set them all correctly). The next step will be working with a replicator to make sure that the output is actually compliant.
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Old 14th August 2009, 20:05   #80  |  Link
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There does seem to be light at the end of the tunnel, though: I've been trying Mainconcept Reference and while not quite at the level of X264's quality, what it's producing is at least slightly better than the encodes I see on retail BDs.
Do you get better results with Mainconcept at L4.1 than with x264 at L4.0?
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