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Old 27th November 2016, 12:52   #40761  |  Link
flossy_cake
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Wow you guys really have a passionate hatred for gsync! Quite surprised to find this in a place supposedly dedicated to video fidelity. I'm guessing you've never actually owned one of these monitors and don't really have any experience with it and/or realise the benefits. Strange, oh well.

Managing frame pacing should not be a problem - multiple frames can be pre-rendered in advance in D3D mode and the monitor matches the render queue not windows 16.7ms time slices. Remember we are in D3D mode, otherwise all 3D mode graphics would snap to the nearest 16.7ms and varisync would not work. With varisync you can fluctuate rapidly between multiple framerates and it is seamless so it doesn't actually matter if the frame pacing is a bit off, that's what makes it so good.

Besides the frame pacing is perfect in full screen mode already so it's probably 2 lines of code to enable the same D3D mode for windowed. But I see Madshi hates it so it'll never happen, oh well.

Last edited by flossy_cake; 27th November 2016 at 12:55.
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Old 27th November 2016, 12:56   #40762  |  Link
nevcairiel
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This was discussed several times before, and the core rendering logic of madVR is not compatible with G-SYNC (or FreeSync for that matter), since it relies on constant V-SYNC intervals for timing the video frames. With G-SYNC it would have to do its own timing, as V-SYNC doesn't exist anymore. Its not like a game where it can just render more or less frames depending on how fast everything runs.
Feel free to search the topic, it has been discussed several times and madshi has commented several times as well that such modes are not planned to be supported anytime soon, as it would require drastic changes to the rendering logic.

V-SYNC has key advantages to video rendering because its a hardware driven interrupt system, no need for inaccurate timers and hope they are correct.

huhn already linked a reply from madshi in an earlier post, so refer to that for the word from madVRs author:
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...ostcount=29243

(Yes we're aware that by now G-SYNC works through HDMI, but TVs still don't exist that do that)
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Old 27th November 2016, 12:58   #40763  |  Link
XTrojan
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G-Sync has no benefit in MadVR buddy.
Movies are delivered in a static framerate, V-Sync handles this exactly like G-Sync would in the same situation.
The only difference is if you would drop frames, that's when G-Sync would improve things a little, but who watches movies with dropped frames?
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Old 27th November 2016, 13:08   #40764  |  Link
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XTrojan that's the thing and point nvidia enhances render stability of Windows by shifting the whole issue from the OS to their driver taking control
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Old 27th November 2016, 13:13   #40765  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XTrojan View Post
G-Sync has no benefit in MadVR buddy.
Movies are delivered in a static framerate, V-Sync handles this exactly like G-Sync would in the same situation.
The only difference is if you would drop frames, that's when G-Sync would improve things a little, but who watches movies with dropped frames?
I disagree. G-Sync, at least in theory, makes it possible to completely slave the video clock to the audio clock, thereby getting rid of frame drops/repeats that are caused by slight mismatch between the two clocks. Which solves an actual problem that affects everyone in this thread, because it's a fundamental problem of video playback on PC in general. The only ways to "solve" that problem today are (1) use ReClock, (2) use Smooth Motion or (3) spend hours fiddling with custom refresh rate timings to try to get it closer to the audio clock. All three "solutions" are brittle hacks that come with significant tradeoffs. G-Sync could be a proper, clean solution to that problem.

However, as madshi already pointed out in the past, one of the main obstacles to using G-Sync to improve video playback is that the set of video displays that support G-Sync (typically, gaming monitors) and the set of video displays that are typically used for video playback (HDTVs, projectors) do not overlap. In other words G-Sync support would only benefit people who critically watch videos on a gaming monitor, which is a very small niche, even among madVR users (which is already a small niche).

There was some excitement in the past about FreeSync being part of new HDMI specs, and one could speculate that it would make sense to support variable sync in HDTVs because game consoles could use it, but despite that, I have never seen an HDTV with variable sync support, nor have I seen any manufacturer interest in it. Maybe after the dust settles around HDR, one could hope…
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Old 27th November 2016, 13:16   #40766  |  Link
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There was some excitement in the past about FreeSync being part of new HDMI specs, but despite that, and one could speculate that it would make sense to support variable sync in HDTVs because game consoles could use it, but despite that, I have never seen an HDTV with variable sync support, nor have I seen any manufacturer interest in it. Maybe after the dust settles around HDR, one could hope…
Right you have all the advanced FRC stuff their and HDR and 10 bit have top priority, when VFR gets more mature in the Future and a definite Standard decided everyone benefits from sure we will see a massive adoption but that's in the shelves for the next TV releases

Also Microsoft has other priorities getting HDR and 10 bit by default into Windows now and VFR is absolutely left to the IHVs for now battling out a mature approach.
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Last edited by CruNcher; 27th November 2016 at 13:22.
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Old 27th November 2016, 13:23   #40767  |  Link
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I fully accept that gsync will not be getting support and will not be asking for it any further, but I want to correct some misinformation as it really annoys me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
the core rendering logic of madVR is not compatible with G-SYNC (or FreeSync for that matter), since it relies on constant V-SYNC intervals for timing the video frames.
It currently works in full screen exclusive mode.

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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Its not like a game where it can just render more or less frames depending on how fast everything runs.
It doesn't matter if a frames arrive a few milliseconds late/early because it's no longer having to snap to the nearest 16.7ms (for a 60hz monitor). So your frames can arrive like this: 40ms-35ms-45ms-42ms-38ms etc. and it looks seamless because the monitor is matching this pattern exactly (see the testufo demo on previous page). That's what's so great about it, it solves this need to match to any refresh rate, you no longer have to worry about frame pacing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
V-SYNC has key advantages to video rendering because its a hardware driven interrupt system, no need for inaccurate timers and hope they are correct.
Look up hi res timer libraries. I'm pretty sure the RivaTuner D3D limiter uses one as it is very accurate (sort of the "gold standard" of limiters) and certainly isn't limited to 16.7ms slices.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...(v=vs.85).aspx

Quote:
Originally Posted by XTrojan View Post
G-Sync has no benefit in MadVR buddy.Movies are delivered in a static framerate, V-Sync handles this exactly like G-Sync would in the same situation.
I suppose I could set it up for vsync fixed refresh mode and have MPC-HC automatically switch modes per file, but that is a lot of mode switching with youtube videos
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Old 27th November 2016, 13:24   #40768  |  Link
x7007
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Issue when using Exclusive mode Dx11 with 60 Hz

Using many players when I use 59 Hz on my TV Philips 7007 the exclusive black flash is instant when going in and out of the video.

When using 60 Hz the black flash is almost 2 sec for no reason. The video still shows 60 Hz on the Display and Composition rate, it doesn't seem to change refresh rate while entering exclusive mode.


Does anyone have any idea how to fix it ? it's annoying to go out and in the video when it's 2 sec instead instant.
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Old 27th November 2016, 13:30   #40769  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flossy_cake View Post
It doesn't matter if a frames arrive a few milliseconds late/early because it's no longer having to snap to the nearest 16.7ms (for a 60hz monitor). So your frames can arrive like this: 40ms-35ms-45ms-42ms-38ms etc. and it looks seamless because the monitor is matching this pattern exactly (see the testufo demo on previous page). That's what's so great about it, it solves this need to match to any refresh rate, you no longer have to worry about frame pacing.
Aren't you the one that wants smooth motion by using G-SYNC? and then you advocate for inaccurate timers? That gives you micro-judder everywhere. How is that any good?
Either it has to work perfectly, or its not worth using.

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Look up hi res timer libraries.
Windows is not a real-time OS, even with a infinite resolution timer there are no guarantees that you can actually act in that exact moment. VSYNC on ther other hand is a hardware interrupt, it has all the guarantees.

Considering 99.9% of all content is fixed refresh rate, just switching your screen refresh is a much easier solution.
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Last edited by nevcairiel; 27th November 2016 at 13:33.
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Old 27th November 2016, 13:33   #40770  |  Link
CruNcher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flossy_cake View Post
I fully accept that gsync will not be getting support and will not be asking for it any further, but I want to correct some misinformation as it really annoys me:



It currently works in full screen exclusive mode.



It doesn't matter if a frames arrive a few milliseconds late/early because it's no longer having to snap to the nearest 16.7ms (for a 60hz monitor). So your frames can arrive like this: 40ms-35ms-45ms-42ms-38ms etc. and it looks seamless because the monitor is matching this pattern exactly (see the testufo demo on previous page). That's what's so great about it, it solves this need to match to any refresh rate, you no longer have to worry about frame pacing.




Look up hi res timer libraries. I'm pretty sure the RivaTuner D3D limiter uses one as it is very accurate (sort of the "gold standard" of limiters) and certainly isn't limited to 16.7ms slices.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...(v=vs.85).aspx



I suppose I could set it up for vsync fixed refresh mode and have MPC-HC automatically switch modes per file, but that is a lot of mode switching with youtube videos
Yes you seem to have understood it then i guess you also understand that it hasn't anything todo with Performance but only the delivery of the result and that you will percept this higher latency still as a slowdown a smoother slow down but still a slow down

A developers goal should be allways to deliver Performance to alleviate this clean code perfect timing.

You as a customer now pay for that a currently to high Premium price, but you can't really expect every Dev to change his mind about that unless maybe they get a share of that money from Nvidia to implement and support it from the money you spend on it

And you can be sure not everyone will agree that currently this is the right path to go longterm improving the situation instead for the masses only for a small paying brainwashed portion of it.
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Old 27th November 2016, 13:41   #40771  |  Link
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In other words G-Sync support would only benefit people who critically watch videos on a gaming monitor, which is a very small niche, even among madVR users (which is already a small niche).
I wouldn't be so sure, how do I put this, if someone bothered to learn about madvr then went through settings learning curve(which is overwhelming at first) and has semi decent GPU to run it all I would say such person is watching at it critically enough.
Also people that go through all that usually have several hobbies and get good monitors/tvs(fun fact: recent asus gaming IPS monitors have better color quality than most 60hz IPS models, according to tft central).
Then there is social factor: anime, tv, videogames at the same time attract special kind of crowd. I for example do everything on my MG279q and have no wish for HTPC.
Just a thought, I may be 180' wrong on this.
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Old 27th November 2016, 13:47   #40772  |  Link
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A developers goal should be always to deliver Performance to alleviate this clean code perfect timing.
I'd take PQ over performance any day, settings that I can't use now I would bruteforce couple GPU generation later. Sorry for such videogame kind of approach.
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Old 27th November 2016, 14:25   #40773  |  Link
e-t172
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Originally Posted by flossy_cake View Post
It currently works in full screen exclusive mode.
Depends on your definition of "works", I suppose. madVR does not actually leverage G-Sync, it's just not broken by it - you get the same end result whether G-Sync is enabled or not. So it's kinda misleading to say that it "works", IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flossy_cake View Post
It doesn't matter if a frames arrive a few milliseconds late/early because it's no longer having to snap to the nearest 16.7ms (for a 60hz monitor).
Actually, in the case of video playback, that matters a lot - contrary to games, regular, accurate cadence is very important for smooth playback. With fixed V-Sync the video clock is inflexible, but at least it's precise.

I think you are confused about how madVR works today. It's not a video game. With fixed V-Sync, madVR doesn't have to worry about maintaining an accurate 16.7ms interval - it just hands the next frame to the GPU well in advance (typically 8 frames in advance, IIRC, with the default settings), and it's the responsibility of the GPU hardware to display these frames on a regular 16.7ms interval, using its own hardware clock, with no interaction with the OS or madVR. There is no need to worry about "frames arriving a few milliseconds late/early" today. It's the opposite: it's when G-Sync is used that you need to worry, see below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flossy_cake View Post
So your frames can arrive like this: 40ms-35ms-45ms-42ms-38ms etc. and it looks seamless because the monitor is matching this pattern exactly (see the testufo demo on previous page).
That makes sense for games, where frames are generated on the fly and the game decides which time point each frame corresponds to. In video it's the opposite - you don't have a say as to how the frames within the video are timestamped, so you have no choice but to match these timestamps exactly. The player is slaved to these timestamps, not the other way around. If you don't match them exactly (such as in your example), you get presentation jitter, and that's bad.

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Originally Posted by flossy_cake View Post
That's what's so great about it, it solves this need to match to any refresh rate, you no longer have to worry about frame pacing.
Yes you do. You still need to make sure the frames are presented at the exact correct time according to the video timestamps and whatever clock the player is using (typically, the audio clock), otherwise you will get noticeable jitter. If that means that madVR needs to do a present call at the exact right time, then that's not good enough, because Windows is not a real-time OS, so there are no guarantees that madVR will be able to make that call at the appropriate time.

Now, if there was a way to prepare the frames on the GPU and then tell the GPU to present them at a very specific rate using its own hardware clock, then that would be usable (and ideal) for video, and that's something that (I'm guessing) madVR could use. Unfortunately, unless I missed something, there is no way to do this, at least not with the APIs that the GPUs currently provide.

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I wouldn't be so sure, how do I put this, if someone bothered to learn about madvr then went through settings learning curve(which is overwhelming at first) and has semi decent GPU to run it all I would say such person is watching at it critically enough.
I think you misunderstood my point. My point was, most people who are in this case (i.e. take the time to learn how to use madVR, worry about cadence…) do not typically use gaming monitors to play their videos on. Instead they use large HDTVs or projection systems, which don't support G-Sync. It's a bit weird to spend all this time getting to the perfect playback system only to use it on a 28" gamer-optimized panel just because it has G-Sync. I'm sure there are people in this case, but it's a very small niche, even among madVR users.

Last edited by e-t172; 27th November 2016 at 14:35.
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Old 27th November 2016, 14:57   #40774  |  Link
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VSYNC on ther other hand is a hardware interrupt, it has all the guarantees.
I'm not sure this is necessarily true, IIRC a VSync interrupt does exist but Windows display drivers are not required to implement it or have it active, and Direct3D 9 as far as I know doesn't use it (even with D3DPRESENT_INTERVAL_ONE it just sets the thread granularity to 1ms so it's a best effort sort of thing). Maybe the compositor (DWM) on newer versions of Windows does make use of it; I've always thought it was annoying how user mode threads can't be woken up by interrupts, but kernel mode threads at least can.

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Old 27th November 2016, 15:11   #40775  |  Link
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If you're seeking perfect playback without switching refresh rate constantly, G-Sync is not a solution, instead, get a 120Hz monitor or a TV, put it at 120Hz, 24/30/60Hz youtube videos will now playback without issue. One exception is 25/50Hz content which will jitter.

There is no solution today to get perfect playback for every video with all variable frame rates out there, VFR is also outdated and no Movie directors so far plan to use it. The only situation is if you want to combine several clips with variable frame rates in which VFR can serve useful.

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Old 27th November 2016, 15:32   #40776  |  Link
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madVR 0.91.1

test @GTX1080 & RX480

(no SR)

I think NGU is like NNEDI3+SR ,but NGU rendering time is less than NNEDI3+SR

NGU is great!

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Old 27th November 2016, 15:37   #40777  |  Link
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Nice compare even if totally unfair from the GPU side
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Old 27th November 2016, 15:51   #40778  |  Link
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Nice compare even if totally unfair from the GPU side
I think the point is how well it scales with hardware. 1080 is roughly twice as powerful compared to 480.
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Old 27th November 2016, 17:06   #40779  |  Link
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G-Sync has no benefit in MadVR buddy.
Movies are delivered in a static framerate, V-Sync handles this exactly like G-Sync would in the same situation.
The only difference is if you would drop frames, that's when G-Sync would improve things a little, but who watches movies with dropped frames?
How is that even true. When watching a 24 fps file on a 60 hz screen it has to use 3:2 pulldown. This leads to alternating frame repeats. One is shown 3 times the other just 2 times

with freesync you could watch it at frame double 48hz, which means no alternating frame repeats and consistent movement
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Old 27th November 2016, 17:15   #40780  |  Link
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If you're seeking perfect playback without switching refresh rate constantly, G-Sync is not a solution, instead, get a 120Hz monitor or a TV, put it at 120Hz, 24/30/60Hz youtube videos will now playback without issue. One exception is 25/50Hz content which will jitter.

There is no solution today to get perfect playback for every video with all variable frame rates out there, VFR is also outdated and no Movie directors so far plan to use it. The only situation is if you want to combine several clips with variable frame rates in which VFR can serve useful.
The advantage of adaptive sync is that you do not need a hfr panel, which would make it feasible in future TVs.

TVs which accept 120hz input will not exist on the other hand anytime soon, since no content is produced in that frame rate
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