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Old 3rd June 2019, 19:22   #1701  |  Link
TD-Linux
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Originally Posted by Tommy Carrot View Post
What's the difference between deltaq and AQ in aomenc? Deltaq changes the quantizer of the frames, and AQ changes the quantizers of the blocks within the frames, or am i completely wrong?
Deltaq is at superblock granularity, whereas "AQ" uses segment support which is down to 4x4 granularity. The two bitstream features are sorta redundant but their coding is optimized for different uses - Deltaq was designed for sub-frame rate targeting, and segments are more for mbtree/psy purposes.
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Old 4th June 2019, 12:05   #1702  |  Link
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Originally Posted by TD-Linux View Post
Deltaq is at superblock granularity, whereas "AQ" uses segment support which is down to 4x4 granularity. The two bitstream features are sorta redundant but their coding is optimized for different uses - Deltaq was designed for sub-frame rate targeting, and segments are more for mbtree/psy purposes.
Thanks for the explanation.
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Old 6th June 2019, 08:39   #1703  |  Link
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vlc 3.0.7 is out, not sure how to check what version of dav1d it uses though.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:03   #1704  |  Link
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vlc 3.0.7 is out, not sure how to check what version of dav1d it uses though.
It's been using dav1d since 3.0.5.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:04   #1705  |  Link
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It's been using dav1d since 3.0.5.
yes, but i wanted to know what version of dav1d v3.0.7 is using.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:26   #1706  |  Link
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yes, but i wanted to know what version of dav1d v3.0.7 is using.
0.3.1
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Old 9th June 2019, 11:53   #1707  |  Link
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At this time shouldn't we consider AV1 a failure and move on to newer codecs, e.g AV2?
  • It doesn't have fast enough decoders to decode on mobile at 1080p on most devices (>80%).
  • It still doesn't have encoders which are anywhere fast enough to be usable by mere mortals.
  • Its hardware adoption is not there - the spec was finalized almost half a year ago, and AV1 is nowhere to be seen in Zen 2.0 (Ryzen 3000), Radeon RDNA 5700 or Intel Ice Lake. No word on its decoding acceleration even in the recently announced Arm's Cortex-A77/Mali-G77.


I find your comment extremely surprising considering your join date of 2006. I would expect such a comment from a newbie.


Unless the entirety of the developer and encoding community are lying to me, what is occurring with AV1 is absolutely par the norm for new codecs.
265 is still a dog to encode without a reasonable monster of a PC. How will an even more compressed, newer codec, that's open (and therefore can't break terrible patents) begin to compete only 6 months in?

The only thing that AV1 has going for it, is it's openness and the hope that /so many players/ throwing themselves at the problem, will slowly address the performance issues.

None the less, it's been 6 months. You're not going to see this getting hardware acceleration for at least 6 more months on any devices.

I suspect it'll be ubiquitous at best case scenario of 3 years. (more experienced members, welcome to correct me)
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Old 9th June 2019, 12:06   #1708  |  Link
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Encoders are no longer being made for this crowd. The primary design goal is massive-scale cloud encoding for YouTube, Netflix, Amazon, and everyone else that fits the encode-once, download hundreds of thousands of times scenario.

In such a scenario, even the slowest encoder is acceptable if it saves enough bytes.

In that scenario, VP9 also didn't fail. It gets used for a lot of content on the web.
It never even began to occur to me that one day, my personal local library, would never be in AV1 format.

Yet here you are outlining exactly why it is very unlikely to and it kind of blows me away, you're totally correct.

AV1 /at scale/ when a video is being watched upwards of 500 times a week, makes so much more sense. Those encode times will eventually pay for themselves.
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Old 9th June 2019, 12:29   #1709  |  Link
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Probability of seeing AV1 decoding in Turing refresh?
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Old 9th June 2019, 13:06   #1710  |  Link
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Probability of seeing AV1 decoding in Turing refresh?
None.
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Old 9th June 2019, 16:49   #1711  |  Link
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nVidia and AMD (possibly Intel for Gen11 iGPUs) could add in drivers a hybrid decoding approach of AV1 using the GPU itself (shaders) but not ASIC yet.
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Old 9th June 2019, 19:52   #1712  |  Link
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Originally Posted by vidschlub View Post
I find your comment extremely surprising considering your join date of 2006. I would expect such a comment from a newbie.
When I was writing that comment I was thinking about VP9. Aside from YouTube/Netflix you'd consider this codec a failure. The scene doesn't use it. Doom9 users don't really use it. It's become a great codec for content delivery. It's not really used anywhere else.

It's kinda strange we have projects like x264/x265 for patent encumbered H.264/H.265 codecs, yet nothing like that for VP9/AV1.

Last edited by birdie; 9th June 2019 at 19:55.
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Old 9th June 2019, 21:35   #1713  |  Link
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I believe that is the niche that rav1e is aiming for.

And if Apple adopts AV1 and it becomes ubiquitous then then I think it'll have been a good move for the focus to have shifted from VP9, even if it means VP9 becomes a bit of a lost generation.

There's been some suggestion that SVT-AV1 has already passed libvpx for the "encode a single video on a single machine" case, while still having room to improve further.
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Old 11th June 2019, 15:30   #1714  |  Link
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AV1 Ecosystem Update: May 2019

https://www.singhkays.com/blog/av1-e...date-may-2019/

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Table of Contents
  • SVT-AV1 is making strides!
  • Android Q gets AV1 support
  • Firefox 67 release makes AV1 decoding default on all desktop platforms
  • Visionular Aurora AV1 codec claims it’s faster and better than x265
  • BBC compares AV1 & VVC
  • Amphion Semiconductor Hardware decoder
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Old 11th June 2019, 16:35   #1715  |  Link
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When I was writing that comment I was thinking about VP9. Aside from YouTube/Netflix you'd consider this codec a failure. The scene doesn't use it. Doom9 users don't really use it. It's become a great codec for content delivery. It's not really used anywhere else.

It's kinda strange we have projects like x264/x265 for patent encumbered H.264/H.265 codecs, yet nothing like that for VP9/AV1.
Are you kidding? I'm using VP9 and loving it!
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Old 11th June 2019, 17:17   #1716  |  Link
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Originally Posted by sneaker_ger View Post
If only Youtube had like .. multiple .. videos coming in daily. Then they could encode them simultaneously on a single CPU each. (And serve AVC or fast setting VP9/AV1 until they are done.)
You could do a fast first pass for scenechange detection and vbv estimation and send the chunks along with that info.
Yeah, something like that would work. It's more overhead, of course, and reduces total throughput. But that's what I'd do if I was trying to get good quality out of what are essentially spot instances.

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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
This is not something any streaming service does though, so why should they invest into developing stuff for a goal they don't even need?
Its just how it goes. And for UHD Blu-ray discs, they can just throw massive bitrates at it to solve any such issues.
Streaming services for premium content do target really high quality, and most of the time at the top bitrate you won't see visible artifacts.

It's the user-generated content world where you see a visible quality ceiling. The sources aren't as good, and the economics for how many MIPS/pixel and how many Mbps to spend yield more conservative choice.

Also there is a big political motivation to use of non-MPEG codecs by some of the biggest UGC platforms, even when it doesn't make strict economic sense.

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Originally Posted by vidschlub View Post
AV1 /at scale/ when a video is being watched upwards of 500 times a week, makes so much more sense. Those encode times will eventually pay for themselves.
That's the hope of AV1. At this point H.264 has very mature encoders, so quality @ bitrate @ speed of AV1 and VP9 really don't offer any substantial improvements, and there are quality regressions versus x264 for some content types.

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Originally Posted by birdie View Post
When I was writing that comment I was thinking about VP9. Aside from YouTube/Netflix you'd consider this codec a failure. The scene doesn't use it. Doom9 users don't really use it. It's become a great codec for content delivery. It's not really used anywhere else.

It's kinda strange we have projects like x264/x265 for patent encumbered H.264/H.265 codecs, yet nothing like that for VP9/AV1.
Yeah, it's a chicken-and-egg thing. Because the market assumes that MPEG codecs are going to be widely used, a lot of people start building commercial codecs while the spec is still being finalized.

Also, the MPEG reference encoders just aren't useful for production due to speed and features. The vp* and AV1 series get a sort of hybrid reference/production encoder. It's "good enough" so people haven't bothered with ground-up new encoders. And specs haven't been close to MPEG quality before AV1.

And we can't discount the unique impact of x264. Legions of video pirates competing on making the best looking files as small as possible as quickly as possible to post to torrent sites meant lots of eyeballs on a very wide range of source content; much more diverse than typical encoder test content libraries. Dozens of people deep diving on tunings instead of a handful. Lots of eyeballs on every new beta to see what's different.

x264 just got good in ways that might be impossible to ever replicate. HEVC is close enough to H.264 that things like CRF and psychovisual tuning worked well enough to refine from. And x264 set a high bar that commercial encoder vendors had to strive to beat.

VP9 never had that kind of interest. AV1 is certainly showing much more competition in commercial encoders already than any vp* codec ever did.
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Old 11th June 2019, 17:41   #1717  |  Link
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It's kinda strange we have projects like x264/x265 for patent encumbered H.264/H.265 codecs, yet nothing like that for VP9/AV1.
rav1e is basically the x264 of AV1 in terms of a community or free software driven project, time will tell if it gets even remotely as much traction as x264 did early on.
Its also as much of a successor to the Theora project, which also had On2 lineage stemming from VP3 being open sourced. For such a limited base codec, they managed to get a lot out of Theora (Ptalabvorm) before VP8 made it redundant for web video.

x265 on the other hand was never truly a successor to x264 in terms of community from what I've seen - it was driven by MultiCoreWare from the get go, and controlled by them rather than community (don't quote me there).

I'd also say rav1e is also kind of a test to see if a production codec can be viable if written in Rust, I think its the first?

Last edited by soresu; 11th June 2019 at 17:49.
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Old 11th June 2019, 17:47   #1718  |  Link
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VP9 never had that kind of interest. AV1 is certainly showing much more competition in commercial encoders already than any vp* codec ever did.
I think the open development process has alot to do with that interest and competition, it helps to get the whole thing going during the standardisation part, and not after.
The fact that it doesn't belong to one singular company helps too I think (like AC3/AC4/DTS). For all the reach of Youtube, noone wants to suffer with their bottom line because Google decided to make a change in codecs.

I think even H264 and H265 would not have prevailed so well without a similar development process - albeit one more encumbered with patent jockeying and so forth.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:54   #1719  |  Link
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I'd also say rav1e is also kind of a test to see if a production codec can be viable if written in Rust, I think its the first?
Large parts of it are in assembly, and I can only see that trend continuing as they improve compression efficiency while trying to avoid sacrificing encoding speed.

While I'd love to see this become the "next x264," I'm not going to hold my breath. Far too many of the best encoders now are not free and especially not open source.
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Old 12th June 2019, 10:50   #1720  |  Link
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Weird results from BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/blog/2019-0...ssing-hevc-vvc: no source videos, no codecs version, nothing.
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