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Old 13th February 2015, 21:51   #41  |  Link
Lyris
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Problem is, I don't see any noise artifacts on the TV I have available for testing.
Which TV is that? (Apologies if you said already).

And, is it accurate in terms of video processing? How do you know your own TV doesn't have undefeatable NR that stops you from seeing a true representation of the source?

(The Samsung F8500 plasma does not have undefeatable NR, BTW - at least not in the US or European versions.)
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Old 13th February 2015, 22:34   #42  |  Link
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And, is it accurate in terms of video processing? How do you know your own TV doesn't have undefeatable NR that stops you from seeing a true representation of the source?
Like something from LG?

I think as long as we don't mention those organic LED displays from Lucky Goldstar Ken won't start posting here to defend them. Hopefully this post goes undetected and doesn't trigger the bat signal.
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Old 14th February 2015, 02:50   #43  |  Link
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The TV is a Sony Bravia KDL-32V5500. The footage plays back on my laptop (Asus G73JH) with a 17.3" 1080p display, connected to the TV via HDMI. The two displays essentially show the same (except for color calibration).
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Old 14th February 2015, 10:49   #44  |  Link
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not sure how old that sony is but you can go into gaming/graphic or pc mode that should disable all unnecessary progressing and may give you 4:4:4. if it is not calibrated the colors are wrong any way and who knows which preset is more accurate.
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Old 14th February 2015, 15:27   #45  |  Link
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The TV is a Sony Bravia KDL-32V5500. The footage plays back on my laptop (Asus G73JH) with a 17.3" 1080p display, connected to the TV via HDMI. The two displays essentially show the same (except for color calibration).
Bravias are some of the finest TVs money can buy, so it's no surprise it looks fantastic compared to a random Visio or Westinghouse at the store. Glad you found some decent settings to help, though.
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Old 14th February 2015, 18:08   #46  |  Link
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So I jumped in and bought the Neat Video plugin, which appears to be a good decision. I'm able to get rid of most of the noise and make the remainder static so it is less distracting. The downside with the sample I chose is that it looks completely "dead" now (could have been a still image). Can't have it both ways. Most importantly, I don't see objectionable processing artifacts, but some may disagree. You can see the noise-reduced sample here:

Sample processed with Neat Video
That still has some artifacts that look like JPEG compression artifacts that are in the "static" image. IMHO it looks over-processed.

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Bravias are some of the finest TVs money can buy, so it's no surprise it looks fantastic compared to a random Visio or Westinghouse at the store. Glad you found some decent settings to help, though.
Did you suddenly find yourself transported to the early to mid 90's making a statement like that?
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Old 14th February 2015, 21:25   #47  |  Link
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Alright, so I decided to make a serious attempt at cleaning up the footage and came up with this.
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Old 15th February 2015, 22:11   #48  |  Link
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Like something from LG?

I think as long as we don't mention those organic LED displays from Lucky Goldstar Ken won't start posting here to defend them. Hopefully this post goes undetected and doesn't trigger the bat signal.
Oh my. The internet is a small place!

Fortunately LG took the feedback on board for the newer models!

Sony LCDs aren't my specialty, so no idea what the KDL-32V5500 is doing.
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Old 15th February 2015, 23:31   #49  |  Link
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Oh my. The internet is a small place!
It indeed is. I've even run into some people on car forums that I knew years earlier on a few different A/V related forums.

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Fortunately LG took the feedback on board for the newer models!
Yes, that's a good thing. I wonder if LG fixed their LCDs also. I recall reading they had the same issue with forced DNR.
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Old 16th February 2015, 05:05   #50  |  Link
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Alright, so I decided to make a serious attempt at cleaning up the footage and came up with this.
That does look better. What did it take to get there?
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Old 16th February 2015, 05:43   #51  |  Link
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That does look better. What did it take to get there?
I processed every frame as a photo with Noise Ninja in Photoshop and then ran MCTD on that for some light additional cleanup.
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Old 16th February 2015, 07:06   #52  |  Link
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Figured it wasn't going to be easy. I'll have to stick to Neat Video for now. It's good enough that very few people will be bothered, it's a heck of a lot easier/faster, and I already have the tools I need. I don't have Noise Ninja and have a very tight budget these days. But thanks a lot for showing what's possible. Having seen your results it's quite likely I'll pick up Noise Ninja and go through the image sequences later when time/funds allow.
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Old 20th February 2015, 04:33   #53  |  Link
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I processed every frame as a photo with Noise Ninja in Photoshop and then ran MCTD on that for some light additional cleanup.
Do you remember what you did more specifically? I'm playing with a trial of Photo Ninja, and if I reduce the noise significantly I get blotchy artifacts in the foreground snow, changing from frame to frame. Did you mask out the foreground when treating with Noise Ninja?
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Old 20th February 2015, 13:49   #54  |  Link
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Do you remember what you did more specifically? I'm playing with a trial of Photo Ninja, and if I reduce the noise significantly I get blotchy artifacts in the foreground snow, changing from frame to frame. Did you mask out the foreground when treating with Noise Ninja?
I used Noise Ninja, which was the predecessor to Photo Ninja. I didn't do any masking. I combined 4 sequential frames from the start of the video into one larger tiled image and used that to generate an automatic noise profile. I used that noise profile for all the frames. I used these settings.

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Old 20th February 2015, 18:04   #55  |  Link
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Hmm, the interface changed quite a bit. Difficult to translate the numbers, and changes in the processing engine might make a difference as well - though, the engine dropdown menu has NN 3 in it as well, and that gave me similar, changing blotches in the foreground.



Do you remember your MCTD settings? I'll play with that as well to see how it compares to Neat Video.
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Old 20th February 2015, 21:39   #56  |  Link
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Hmm, the interface changed quite a bit. Difficult to translate the numbers, and changes in the processing engine might make a difference as well - though, the engine dropdown menu has NN 3 in it as well, and that gave me similar, changing blotches in the foreground.



Do you remember your MCTD settings? I'll play with that as well to see how it compares to Neat Video.
Mine is version 2.x. Can you post a picture after processing with the blotches?

I'll paste my MCTD settings later when I get home.

Edit: Here are my MCTD settings. I use one of these. They're in order from weakest to strongest.

#MCTemporalDenoise(settings="low")
#MCTemporalDenoise(settings="low", radius=3)
#MCTemporalDenoise(settings="low", radius=3, sigma=6, SHmode=3, useEEDI2=false, quant1=30, quant2=60, ECrad=4, ECmode="Removegrain(3,-1)", maxr=3, TTstr=2, GFthr=1.6, thSAD=400, thSAD2=400, thSCD1=400)
#MCTemporalDenoise(settings="medium")

Last edited by Stereodude; 21st February 2015 at 01:19.
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Old 21st February 2015, 01:36   #57  |  Link
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Two samples (adjacent frames) here and here, corresponding originals here and here. Compare the two to see how the snow at the bottom changes. This was with default "smart preset" settings as shown above and needs significant additional cleanup. As you can imagine, if I adjust either of the luminance sliders towards stronger smoothing it only gets worse. I tried using the 1920x1080 crops you were working with and additional cleanup with Neat Video. Better, but still quite visible artifacts. In your sample the foreground is fine.
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Old 21st February 2015, 11:30   #58  |  Link
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Ok, after improving the Neat Video treatment in After Effects I've produced what IMO is the best result so far - download here. Admittedly, on a neutral display I suspect most people would prefer Stereodude's Ninja-version because it looks cleaner and crisper, though some critical viewers would prefer the more natural looking sky (stars in particular) in my Neat-version. However, add the vicious default sharpening that many displays apply and the situation is different. Comparing the two samples on VLC with sharpness cranked up, the Neat-version has less halos and a steady image. The Ninja-version looks nervous with artificial movement that is particularly visible in the snow and along the horizon. This is the same problem with smoothing changing between frames that I was complaining about above, just better concealed.

The Neat-version has some dark pixels peppered around the image though. These are pixels that are darker than their neighbors on average. Not enough to be noticeable at low ISO or even in a single image at high ISO due to noise. But when a temporal filter has smoothed out noise, these dark pixels remain - see image below. Spatial smoothing can take them out, but at the price of unreasonable loss of detail. It would be relatively straightforward to filter such isolated dark pixels out without having to spatially smooth the whole image, but I have not found a utility to do so. Suggestions? These dark pixels are numerous enough that I'm hesitant to start mapping them individually...

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Old 21st February 2015, 18:04   #59  |  Link
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Two samples (adjacent frames) here and here, corresponding originals here and here. Compare the two to see how the snow at the bottom changes. This was with default "smart preset" settings as shown above and needs significant additional cleanup. As you can imagine, if I adjust either of the luminance sliders towards stronger smoothing it only gets worse. I tried using the 1920x1080 crops you were working with and additional cleanup with Neat Video. Better, but still quite visible artifacts. In your sample the foreground is fine.
Yikes NN4 hardly seems like it's improving the image any. There's less Chroma noise, but there's still a lot of Luma noise (perhaps just as much as the source), and it seems like it sharpened and brightened the image. Here's what NN2.3.5 did to your two original images. First & Second.
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Old 21st February 2015, 23:51   #60  |  Link
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Well, the "smart preset" obviously wasn't fit in this case. When I say it gets worse for stronger smoothing I mean in terms of the consistency between frames, which is all important for my use. For single images NN4 can also produce good results. But because of the frame-to-frame differences I don't think I'll be able to use software that processes the frames individually. I also tested Topaz Denoise, same story.
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