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Old 5th August 2018, 14:17   #51961  |  Link
cork_OS
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Originally Posted by jaytrinitron View Post
Good to know. Just because I'm unaware, is there any rough timetable around the release of MadVR 1.0?
In this thread madVR 1.0 is a meme like Second Coming.

Just now madshi is interested in improving HDR->SDR mapping, which development go on at another forum.
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Old 5th August 2018, 14:20   #51962  |  Link
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Originally Posted by cork_OS View Post
In this thread madVR 1.0 is a meme like Second Coming.

Just now madshi is interested in improving HDR->SDR mapping, which development go on at another forum.
Figures. Well, he keeps improving his unique software and adding new features all the time all for free, so I can't complain.
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Old 6th August 2018, 01:32   #51963  |  Link
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Is HDR content (i.e., 4k UHD 10-bit Blu-ray) supposed to look much darker than SDR on an 8-bit monitor, or are my madVR settings causing this problem? As a demonstration:
  • here's a screenshot of the SDR Blu-ray version, and
  • here's a screenshot of the 4K UDH Blu-ray.

This is not just one movie, though. Every 4K UHD Blu-ray movie that I've compared with its ordinary 1080p Blu-ray version has had this darkness problem.

I have an 8-bit monitor with 300 max cd/m^2 ("nits").

I use madVR with mpc-hc and my madVR's HDR settings can be seen here.

My OSD information is here.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated

Thanks!
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Old 6th August 2018, 03:14   #51964  |  Link
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I've noticed the same thing.. Even changing the nits to 100 doesn't help enough.. I'm staying away from HDR as a result.. Normal blurays are probably better overall..
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Old 6th August 2018, 08:36   #51965  |  Link
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I've noticed the same thing.. Even changing the nits to 100 doesn't help enough.. I'm staying away from HDR as a result.. Normal blurays are probably better overall..
There's a lot of work being done on the HDR to SDR tone-mapping in another forum. It's almost ready and will likely be released here soon, but I can say that it looks much better now than the current official release.

Overall, HDR to SDR will always look a bit darker though.

Last edited by AngelGraves13; 6th August 2018 at 08:38.
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Old 6th August 2018, 08:52   #51966  |  Link
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Originally Posted by AngelGraves13 View Post
There's a lot of work being done on the HDR to SDR tone-mapping in another forum. It's almost ready and will likely be released here soon, but I can say that it looks much better now than the current official release.

Overall, HDR to SDR will always look a bit darker though.
What another forum?
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Old 6th August 2018, 09:00   #51967  |  Link
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I'm aware, I'm using one of those test builds. @kostik Avsforum. A new release build can't be too far off now.
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Old 6th August 2018, 13:58   #51968  |  Link
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HI, got a quick question, since the last few Nvidia drivers , I've lost the bit setting option in the Nvidia panel (8 / 12 bits)

Currently using : GeForce Game Ready Driver 398.82 WHQL

Is this correct ? having not bit choice anymore ?

Thanks for any reply ;-)
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Old 6th August 2018, 14:22   #51969  |  Link
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Originally Posted by HelmedHorror View Post
Is HDR content (i.e., 4k UHD 10-bit Blu-ray) supposed to look much darker than SDR on an 8-bit monitor, or are my madVR settings causing this problem?

Thanks!
This is normal because a high-contrast image is being shown at a low brightness. Most HDR content is around 1,000 nits at the brightest pixel vs. 100 nits for SDR. In order to display this correctly, some range compression is required to provide proper contrast between dark and bright image detail. Otherwise, detail would be clipped and the image would be flat. PQ HDR is also an absolute brightness standard without a flexible gamma curve like SDR. So it is difficult to brighten it even when converted to SDR without making it inaccurate. For example, you can't watch a 100 nit source at 300 nits like SDR content.

There are different approaches to tone mapping. BT.2390 happens to be on the harsh side and compresses most of the content range to a lower nits. In the future, more dynamic tone mapping may be available or different tone mapping curves. This should make the image a little brighter. Personally, I've adapted to the darker image and find that the HDR version can have detail that isn't possible in SDR because the brightest information is clipped.

Try using a lower target nits and/or brightening your display when watching HDR content. Changing the gamma curve in calibration can also help sometimes. The target nits value is the PQ container and not the brightness of your SDR display. The conversion from PQ to gamma does not translate directly and will vary by display depending on its brightness and gamma curve. Two displays with the same relative brightness can require different target nits.

Last edited by Warner306; 6th August 2018 at 15:57.
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Old 6th August 2018, 14:27   #51970  |  Link
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Originally Posted by svengun View Post
HI, got a quick question, since the last few Nvidia drivers , I've lost the bit setting option in the Nvidia panel (8 / 12 bits)

Currently using : GeForce Game Ready Driver 398.82 WHQL

Is this correct ? having not bit choice anymore ?

Thanks for any reply ;-)
You are probably using the default color settings. Switch to "Use Nvidia color settings." If it is still not there, try a reboot. If still not there, you need to clean and reinstall your drivers.
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Old 6th August 2018, 14:31   #51971  |  Link
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You are probably using the default color settings. Switch to "Use Nvidia color settings." If it is still not there, try a reboot. If still not there, you need to clean and reinstall your drivers.
hhmm I do have the 16-.... limited range changed to full (0-255) , by choosing player settings

Maybe I overlooked another option (switching to Nvidia colors)

I tried DDU a few times , but when logging into Safe Boot (option 4) I get a Stack Buffer Overflow and can't log in to Win ;-(

I'm on the Win Insiders program , Skip-ahead ring

Many thanks for your suggestion will try it when I get home , if not I'll do a fresh install when the Win Insider ROM's are available again (Redstone 5)
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Old 6th August 2018, 15:13   #51972  |  Link
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@ Warner360,

Not sure if it has been covered before, but is there a calculation for target nits? My Samsung KS8000 has a claimed nits of 1,000 in HDR mode, but using the new HDR to SDR algo, anything over a target nits of 125 makes the image too dark.
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Old 6th August 2018, 15:19   #51973  |  Link
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Originally Posted by oldpainlesskodi View Post
@ Warner360,

Not sure if it has been covered before, but is there a calculation for target nits? My Samsung KS8000 has a claimed nits of 1,000 in HDR mode, but using the new HDR to SDR algo, anything over a target nits of 125 makes the image too dark.
That makes no sense. I've never heard of a display that uses a target nits that low, let alone an actual HDR display.

There is no current way to calculate this. It may help to label this setting "target HDR nits" or "target PQ nits" because it is unrelated to the brightness of your display. It is a measure of how much compression is applied to the original curve in absolute nits, not relative nits.

I have two displays that are around 150 nits. One uses a setting of 350-400 nits, the other 450-500 nits with the same 2.40 gamma curve to achieve similar relative brightness. Your result is nonsense.

If you have an HDR display that bright, you wouldn't benefit much from HDR -> SDR, anyways. Passthrough would be the way to go.
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Old 6th August 2018, 15:33   #51974  |  Link
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That makes no sense. I've never heard of a display that uses a target nits that low, let alone an actual HDR display.
? Like I said anything higher than 125 for target peak nits makes the image too dark (obviously in SDR mode), and I'm fully aware what "target HDR nits" does.

Even though I have a HDR display at 1,000 nits, I am comparing the new HDR to SDR algo tone mapping, VS HDR Pass through.

Oddly enough, the SDR peak brightness of the set is:

SDR Real Scene Peak Brightness
: 489 cd/m2
SDR Peak 2% Window
: 1116 cd/m2
SDR Peak 10% Window
: 1332 cd/m2
SDR Peak 25% Window
: 723 cd/m2
SDR Peak 50% Window
: 528 cd/m2
SDR Peak 100% Window
: 532 cd/m2
SDR Sustained 2% Window
: 296 cd/m2
SDR Sustained 10% Window
: 644 cd/m2
SDR Sustained 25% Window
: 522 cd/m2
SDR Sustained 50% Window
: 538 cd/m2
SDR Sustained 100% Window
: 530 cd/m2


But thanks for your response.

K
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Last edited by oldpainlesskodi; 6th August 2018 at 15:45.
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Old 6th August 2018, 16:04   #51975  |  Link
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If you convert to SDR and then display on a HDR display and want a HDR-like representation, you would have to manually massively increase the brightness, if the display even lets you reach HDR-levels, because HDR peak brightness is not designed for that in many cases. But that would make normal SDR content quite overly bright, so you would have to compensate for that as well.

Basically, if your display is properly calibrated for SDR content, then converting HDR to SDR should probably use a low nit value, because thats what your TV is setup for. You would have to re-calibrate the TV if you want to target a higher peak brightness in SDR mode. And of course remember to use a 3DLUT for example to restore SDR to its normal brightness.

Its a bit of an annoying combination to setup, and if your TV can display HDR properly, using pass-through would be better.
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Old 6th August 2018, 16:20   #51976  |  Link
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Using that combination with an HDR display is definitely problematic. HDR presentation at SDR brightness is very difficult to calibrate and the gamma curve makes it even more difficult. Using a low peak nits stacks values too close together and leads to a very flat image appearance and a lack of detail, as well as problems with color. Achieving an HDR presentation at SDR brightness means using a slightly higher peak nits and living with a low value for reference white (100 nits). Most of the original contrast will still be there, but the image will be darker. Not all movies are terribly dark and some match the Blu-ray reasonably well and come with more refined detail, even when downscaled. It depends on the metadata.
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Old 6th August 2018, 16:52   #51977  |  Link
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@ Nevcairiel.

Yes, all very true, but as you alluded to, it depends on the set and calibration.

Besides projector owners, and owners of SDR displays, there are people with HDR displays that will possibly choose the new HDR to SDR algo, because often the TV manufacturers HDR tone mapping algos are extremely poor.

At 125 target nits, and I get more (perceived?) contrast, more pleasing (accurate?) tone mapping and detail than straight HDR passthrough.

An example of this is the HDR version of Arrival at 18.02. In HDR mode, there is a loss of contrast and detail in the backround of the helicopter cabin on my TV, but not with the HDR to SDR algo set at 125 nits.

As always, it's down to the combination in setup and preferences.

K
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Last edited by oldpainlesskodi; 6th August 2018 at 17:33. Reason: Typo
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Old 6th August 2018, 17:50   #51978  |  Link
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You are probably using the default color settings. Switch to "Use Nvidia color settings." If it is still not there, try a reboot. If still not there, you need to clean and reinstall your drivers.
Yup, you we're correct, plus

I feel stupid about this, I wasn't connected to my 4K HDR OLED , but to my 1080P monitor (DVI connected) :-(

Many, many thanks !
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Old 6th August 2018, 19:47   #51979  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
If you convert to SDR and then display on a HDR display and want a HDR-like representation, you would have to manually massively increase the brightness, if the display even lets you reach HDR-levels, because HDR peak brightness is not designed for that in many cases. But that would make normal SDR content quite overly bright, so you would have to compensate for that as well.

Basically, if your display is properly calibrated for SDR content, then converting HDR to SDR should probably use a low nit value, because thats what your TV is setup for. You would have to re-calibrate the TV if you want to target a higher peak brightness in SDR mode. And of course remember to use a 3DLUT for example to restore SDR to its normal brightness.

Its a bit of an annoying combination to setup, and if your TV can display HDR properly, using pass-through would be better.
so i guess the idea of using 2 different channels and cloning is not a well spread setup yet. the annoying would change to a remote click and maybe a profile for 3d LUTs
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Old 6th August 2018, 21:20   #51980  |  Link
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@oldpainlesskodi

I have UE equivalent of KS8000, and using latest test builds madVR tonemapping gives me much better results than passtrough. Set the TV in either "Film" or "Game" mode, set the backlight to 20 and smart LED to High, then set peak target nits in madVR to 1000 if you want HDR, or backlight to 4 and target nits to 480 if you want SDR-like image.
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