madVR 10-bit Display Support Test

[James Freeman]

XMonarchY,

You don't seem to understand that the FRC in that specific monitor is not to create 10bit from 8bit input... where did you get that?
The FRC noise you see is from internal processing of gamma and gamut calibration, at the output you only see noisy 8bit.
8bit Input & Noisy 8bit Output is NOT as smooth as 10bit, PERIOD.
What you may actually see is a standard 8bit monitor that does gradients smoother than a bad TV.
You probably did not have a proper monitor with smooth 8bit gradient up till this Eizo, that's why you think it is smoother than it should be.
8bit IS smooth if the processing is right and no banding occurs, but 10bit is 4 times smoother still.
Eizo are great monitors be happy about that, but know that yours is a good 8bit one.

A plasma has terrible dithering because that's just how plasma TV's works, but the input is only 8bit and the resulting picture is also in 8bit and extremely dithered.
I can't explain it simpler, the dithering you see does NOT mean your monitor is showing 10bit; it means it's showing noisy 8bit if it only accepts 8bit at input.

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by codemaster

Could someone please summarize state of findings regarding Panasonic ST60? I tried to search and find a definitive answer, but couldn't.
Thanks!

My findings about the ST60:

RGB

8bit Limited range From GPU, Standard (16-236) range in TV in 4:4:4 (pixel direct):
Everything smooth as it should be.

8bit Full range From GPU, Nonstandard (0-255) range in TV in 4:4:4 (pixel direct):
Banding.

8bit Full range From GPU, Nonstandard (0-255) range in TV (pixel direct Off):
Smooth but not 4:4:4

12bit Limited range From GPU, Standard (16-236) range in TV in 4:4:4 (pixel direct):
Banding.

12bit Full range From GPU, Nonstandard (0-255) range in TV in 4:4:4 (pixel direct):
Banding.

12bit Full range From GPU, Nonstandard (0-255) range in TV (pixel direct Off):
Smooth but not 4:4:4


YCbCr444
* Always Limited Range.

8bit From GPU, 4:4:4 (pixel direct):
Everything smooth as it should be.

8bit From GPU, (pixel direct Off):
Smooth but not 4:4:4

12bit From GPU, 4:4:4 (pixel direct):
Banding.

12bit From GPU, (pixel direct Off):
Smooth but not 4:4:4

Conclusions:
8bit RGB Limited range From GPU, Standard (16-236) range in TV in 4:4:4 (pixel direct), PC levels in madVR:
I would also suggest RGB because we don't want the GPU to convert to YCbCr which is another conversion step between madVR and TV.
This will convert the OS desktop to limited range. Another conversion step.
Use this if you use the TV for computer stuff besides and along with madVR movie watching.

The absolute BEST way to do this is as follows:
Nvidia RGB Full range 8bit.
madVR TV Levels (16-235) under Properties.
ST60: Standard (16-235).
This will result in the least amount of conversion stages and retain BTB & WTW just like a high quality Blu-Ray player would. In fact, Luma will not be dithered at all!
But, other programs in OS will be clipped.
Use this if you only use madVR for perfect quality movie watching on your TV or using AVS709HD calibration patterns to set Contrast and Brightness like you would from a Blu-Ray player.

The ST60 is at its best at 8bit Limited range in 4:4:4, just stick to that and madVR dithering and we'll be fine for a few more years.
Hope this helped.

[huhn]

so the internal processing doesn't dither sometimes?

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by huhn

so the internal processing doesn't dither sometimes?

Each pixel of the LCD is moved by a transistor with voltage applied to its gate, so it is completely analog.
What voltage is applied to the transistor to create a gamma curve is calibrated and stored in the displays processor.

For example:
The processor accepts only 8bit input (what you see in Nvidia CP).
Internally it can store data in 16bit for calibration (10bit in XMonarchY case).
It outputs only 8bit voltage steps from this 16bit range to move the lcd pixels.

Or in XMonarchY case, at the output the display uses FRC to recreate 10bit from the processor to the pixel voltages.
If the processor uses higher bit depth like 16bit, it does not need to use FRC to "choose from" 10bit limited pallet; it can map from 16bit directly to 8bit.
But at the input the processor receives only 8bit, thus at the output it only shows 8bit.

All this is very simplified for example only.

[codemaster]

Thanks for posting your findings about ST60.

I was using 8bit / RGB Full Range / 4:4:4 (pixel direct), but I'll reconsider based on the findings. The problem is I use the PC for gaming as well, so switching to Limited may not be an option.

At least it seems there is no gain with 12bit, so that's one less option to consider :-)

[huhn]

james the question was about your ST60 plasma.

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by codemaster

I was using 8bit / RGB Full Range / 4:4:4 (pixel direct), but I'll reconsider based on the findings. The problem is I use the PC for gaming as well, so switching to Limited may not be an option.

No no, it IS an option.
Just switch in Nvidia CP to Limited RGB, and the ST60 to Standard (16-235) 4:4:4.
This way you get PC games and madVR (0-255) to play correctly, BUT, the GPU will do the range conversion from 0-255 to 126-235.
Nvidia does this in high bit depth so I don't see any banding at all.
This IS the option to use with the ST60 if you play PC games and watch movies, just like a PC monitor.

Originally Posted by huhn

james the question was about your ST60 plasma.
So the internal processing doesn't dither sometimes?

Hard to say.
I can assume that any TV with a good/working Color Management System has to be high bit depth internally, just like madVR is 16bit.

Several things are for sure:
With Pixel Direct On (4:4:4) the ST60 band-less only in 8bit Limited (Standard), and the CMS for Yellow Cyan and Magenta is completely disabled.
With Pixel Direct Off, there are no banding in any mode: Full, Limited, 8 or 12 bit and the CMS is fully functional and banding free.
From that I can conclude that the high bit depth processing in the ST60 is only used in 4:2:2 mode.
Any Plasma TV is a dithering monster, it dithers at the output for sure.

[codemaster]

Thanks for clarification.

Then I guess it boils down to sacrificing color conversion (Full -> Limited) vs banding. I guess subjectively color conversion should work fine especially after calibration. Don't want to miss shadow details :-)

[huhn]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

No no, it IS an option.
Just switch in Nvidia CP to Limited RGB, and the ST60 to Standard (16-235) 4:4:4.
This way you get PC games and madVR (0-255) to play correctly, BUT, the GPU will do the range conversion from 0-255 to 126-235.
Nvidia does this in high bit depth so I don't see any banding at all.
This IS the option to use with the ST60 if you play PC games and watch movies, just like a PC monitor.



Hard to say.
I can assume that any TV with a good/working Color Management System has to be high bit depth internally, just like madVR is 16bit.

Several things are for sure:
With Pixel Direct On (4:4:4) the ST60 band-less only in 8bit Limited (Standard), and the CMS for Yellow Cyan and Magenta is completely disabled.
With Pixel Direct Off, there are no banding in any mode: Full, Limited, 8 or 12 bit and the CMS is fully functional and banding free.
From that I can conclude that the high bit depth processing in the ST60 is only used in 4:2:2 mode.
Any Plasma TV is a dithering monster, it dithers at the output for sure.

yeah they are "1 bit" displays they don't create a pixel using transistor and different total power at a pixel they let a pixel blink and the time is blink is the brightness of that pixel.

and i'm pretty sure a DAC is used for this.

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by codemaster

Then I guess it boils down to sacrificing color conversion (Full -> Limited) vs banding.

The conversion is in the GPU in very high bit depth so no visible "sacrificing" occurs.
Just use Limited to fulfill all your needs.
Besides, up until several versions ago it was the only option by default without the user ability to change it.

Originally Posted by huhn

yeah they are "1 bit" displays they don't create a pixel using transistor and different total power at a pixel they let a pixel blink and the time is blink is the brightness of that pixel.

1bit but with super fast refresh rate...
If you compare a Plasma and 1bit+dithering in madVR there is a huge difference.
Because the plasma refresh rate for the 1bit dithering is A LOT faster than "change every frame" that madVR uses.

[huhn]

Originally Posted by James Freeman

1bit but with super fast refresh rate...
If you compare a Plasma and 1bit+dithering in madVR there is a huge difference.
Because the plasma refresh rate for the 1bit dithering is A LOT faster than "change every frame" that madVR uses.

it's the length of of "bit" and of cause it has nothing to do with madVR 1 bit.

Originally Posted by James Freeman

XMonarchY,

You don't seem to understand that the FRC in that specific monitor is not to create 10bit from 8bit input... where did you get that?
The FRC noise you see is from internal processing of gamma and gamut calibration, at the output you only see noisy 8bit.
8bit Input & Noisy 8bit Output is NOT as smooth as 10bit, PERIOD.
What you may actually see is a standard 8bit monitor that does gradients smoother than a bad TV.
You probably did not have a proper monitor with smooth 8bit gradient up till this Eizo, that's why you think it is smoother than it should be.
8bit IS smooth if the processing is right and no banding occurs, but 10bit is 4 times smoother still.
Eizo are great monitors be happy about that, but know that yours is a good 8bit one.

A plasma has terrible dithering because that's just how plasma TV's works, but the input is only 8bit and the resulting picture is also in 8bit and extremely dithered.
I can't explain it simpler, the dithering you see does NOT mean your monitor is showing 10bit; it means it's showing noisy 8bit if it only accepts 8bit at input.

I agree with almost everything. 8bit + FRC to ME looks ALMOST as smooth as true 10bit. It surely looks better than 8bit only.

[huhn]

and how did you compared it to 8 bit only?

[James Freeman]

Originally Posted by XMonarchY

I agree with almost everything. 8bit + FRC to ME looks ALMOST as smooth as true 10bit. It surely looks better than 8bit only.

For the last time and in your words,
Your monitor IS 8bit only.

If you can't select 10bit in Nvidia CP, your monitor don't actually use FRC to create 10bit.
Understand?

If you mean that DITHERED 8bit looks as good as 10bit, then you absolutely right.

Originally Posted by James Freeman

For the last time and in your words,
Your monitor IS 8bit only.

If you can't select 10bit in Nvidia CP, your monitor don't actually use FRC to create 10bit.
Understand?

If you mean that DITHERED 8bit looks as good as 10bit, then you absolutely right.

Isn't FRC = DITHERING? Its 8bit + dithering (outside of madVR) and I assumed such dithering means FRC...

[huhn]

dithering is a way to lowering the bit deep. but you never get 10 bit in the monitor. so the monitor dither is never dithering true 10 bit.

Originally Posted by huhn

dithering is a way to lowering the bit deep. but you never get 10 bit in the monitor. so the monitor dither is never dithering true 10 bit.

What is FRC then? I thought FRC = dithering. Whichever dithering is used by FG2421, its very very good at preventing 1DLUT banding.

[huhn]

if you would send an 10 bit signal to the display(which is not possible with this display) the FRC from this display would be used to let it look like 10 bit.

but currently it is just dithering the error from the internal processing.

nvidia can dither an 10 bit input from madVR down to 8 bit but it is very unlikely that this dither is better than madVR dithering. i hope nvidia is using something like random dithering.

windows CMS 1D calibrations have a bad quality. so the 10 bit input may force nvidia to use 10 bit processing on it so the results on the 1D LUT looks better than normal 8 bit if this is true. 10 bit madVR output should look better than 8 bit output on nearly all displays. on the other hand madVR overlay mode should stomp these results with is 16 bit+ processing of 1D LUT.

Originally Posted by huhn

if you would send an 10 bit signal to the display(which is not possible with this display) the FRC from this display would be used to let it look like 10 bit.

but currently it is just dithering the error from the internal processing.

nvidia can dither an 10 bit input from madVR down to 8 bit but it is very unlikely that this dither is better than madVR dithering. i hope nvidia is using something like random dithering.

windows CMS 1D calibrations have a bad quality. so the 10 bit input may force nvidia to use 10 bit processing on it so the results on the 1D LUT looks better than normal 8 bit if this is true. 10 bit madVR output should look better than 8 bit output on nearly all displays. on the other hand madVR overlay mode should stomp these results with is 16 bit+ processing of 1D LUT.

I use ArgyllCMS (via dispcalGUI) 1DLUT calibration, which is as good as it gets. I think dithering comes from the monitor, not nVidia drivers. Otherwise there would be the same dithering on my HDTV in 8bit mode, but there isn't.

madVR dithering is probably better than dithering I get on FG2421, but it is still excellent at removing banding.

[huhn]

it can't dither 10 bit if it never gets 10 bit sorry it is that simple. so no the driver is dithering in this case. if nvidia would send 10 bit than the display would do the dithering using FRC but that's simply not the case

TV are a whole different beasts. alone the possibility that they are 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 sub sampling makes 10 bit very helpful.

and not even argyllCMS can fix windows CMS/gamma ramp of the GPU.