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Old 1st February 2019, 16:14   #54541  |  Link
iSeries
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
You could install 385.28 and see if you get any improvements on your display.
Thanks - unfortunately custom resolutions with this driver version don't work well for me. I can't seem to get any good timings with it.
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Old 1st February 2019, 16:19   #54542  |  Link
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If there are displays that do dynamic tonemapping and dynamic targets with HDR10 content (given that HDR10+ isn't supported on UHD Bluray), I'd like to know which ones, because I'm not aware of any, although that's probably off topic.
All of the current gen OLEDs from LG, Sony, Panasonic and Phillips apply dynamic tone mapping to HDR10 content. They are all using the same panels and are starting to look more and more identical with each passing year as they copy each other. As stated, Samsung is supposedly adding dynamic tone mapping to its QLEDs this year.

This would have been a good time for JVC to get into dynamic tone mapping because projectors do the most tone mapping of any current displays. They probably shouldn't have put it off for another possible generation when the technology is already available.
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Old 1st February 2019, 16:46   #54543  |  Link
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I've found that the best middle ground for OLEDs is to use the madVR tone mapping with pixel shaders outputting in HDR for a peak of 700 nits. SDR loses too much peak brightness for HDR (400 nits max) and the LG dynamic tone mapping can actually completely destroy dark scenes since it raises the overall black level. See the 2001 Space Odyssey star scene and watch as stars disappear with dynamic tone mapping. There are also some differences in color between LG and madVR, where I think madVR looks more correct. LG's dynamic tone mapping also handles 4000 nit movies rather poorly, at least on my B7. Whether there is a double tone mapping effect between madVR and the LG for this config, I don't know, but it clearly looks more accurate doing this.
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Old 1st February 2019, 17:07   #54544  |  Link
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The raised blacks in the 2017 LGs have been documented. You need a 2018 model to get the newest dynamic tone mapping with a more neutral reference white. It wouldn't be surprising, either, if they were still handling gamut mapping less accurately. But you have to watch for double processing when madVR hands off to the TV. It is good to use an external reference such as the SDR Blu-ray to ensure madVR and the TV work harmoniously together and don't cause any unwanted shifts to the color.

Pixel shader would probably work really well with LEDs that reach 1,000 to 1,500 because they tend to ignore the highlights in the brightest movies in a favour of a gentle roll-off. It would be beneficial to bring that very bright detail back without making the overall image any darker.
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Old 1st February 2019, 17:08   #54545  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
All of the current gen OLEDs from LG, Sony, Panasonic and Phillips apply dynamic tone mapping to HDR10 content. They are all using the same panels and are starting to look more and more identical with each passing year as they copy each other. As stated, Samsung is supposedly adding dynamic tone mapping to its QLEDs this year.

This would have been a good time for JVC to get into dynamic tone mapping because projectors do the most tone mapping of any current displays. They probably shouldn't have put it off for another possible generation when the technology is already available.
Dynamic tonemapping is old school, that's what we were doing last year

I asked for dynamic tonemapping *and* dynamic targets with HDR10 (what you can currently achieve with MadVR's test build and Soulnight's utility). AFAIK no display currently does this.

JVC offers the best OEM tonemapping on projectors currently with their new models. That covers basic needs that work out of the box in most situations.

Those who want better results have a few options, namely MadVR and Lumagen.

I don't think projectors will ever keep up with these, so I'm not expecting anything special from any display manufacturer.
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Last edited by Manni; 1st February 2019 at 23:07.
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Old 1st February 2019, 17:45   #54546  |  Link
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I really don't get why people keep praising LG's dynamic tone mapping. It's terrible and I don't ever use it. It behaves almost like a dynamic contrast setting where it brightens up most non-bright scenes that wouldn't need any tone mapping at all. I guess a more fitting term would be "bright room mode" instead of dynamic tone mapping.


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Is there any obvious way to know if the driver is sending incorrect metadata? I mean like the picture being obviously 'wrong'. I'm using 416.34 and it seems to work well, but now I'm reading that this incorrect metadata issue has been present for a while even before this version.
The LG C8 actually uses different 20 point white balance adjustment points when sending 4000 nits metadata compared to 1000 nits.
I don't know the exact numbers on top of my head but with 1000 nits metadata the second last adjustment point is 6XX and with 4000 nits metatdata it's 7XX.

So that's a good way to check if metadata is sent correctly I guess.
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Old 1st February 2019, 17:51   #54547  |  Link
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I'm using a HP Pavilion 300-030nb with Intel HD Graphics 4400 onboard and 4gb Ram and i3 processor.
What is your screen definition? 4 GB isn't a lot for madVR with integrated graphics. Depending on the settings, VRAM usage can already take around 500 MB even for 1080p. 4K would take a bit more than 2 GB, leaving less than 2 GB for the OS and applications. Maybe your system is struggling from lack of RAM?
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Old 1st February 2019, 19:02   #54548  |  Link
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Good point, at least for the displays that can reach more than 1000nits in HDR and support dynamic tonemapping with HDR10 content (not many). I keep forgetting indeed how poorly designed flat panels are in that they don't allow to reach peak brightness in a non HDR mode. I guess in that case users are stuck with a driver that can passthrough the correct metadata, until MS/nVidia/Madshi can correct this. Here, only 385.28 allows this, although 388.16 (the default driver installed by MS when detecting the GPU) seems to passthrough metadata correctly too, contrary to what I reported yesterday. Some are reporting more recent drivers working with passthrough, it might be dependent on GPU models and bit depth.

However, if I had an OLED in a dedicated room, I would much rather use MadVR's dynamic tonemapping and dynamic targets with a peak brightness of 400nits than the display's static tonemapping at 600nits+. So I stand by what I said, which applies to most current displays.

If there are displays that do dynamic tonemapping and dynamic targets with HDR10 content (given that HDR10+ isn't supported on UHD Bluray), I'd like to know which ones, because I'm not aware of any, although that's probably off topic.
My C8 does dynamic tone mapping. I combine it with madvr's and set a target of 700. What little tonemapping that needs to be done is done by madvr and passed to the tv. In theory the TV's dynamic tonemapping wouldn't need to do anything because it should be under the max nits for the display. This is what I've been using for a while now and absolutely love the results I get.

EDIT: Yes, I see your reply about dynamic targets above...
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Old 1st February 2019, 19:06   #54549  |  Link
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Originally Posted by blu3wh0 View Post
I've found that the best middle ground for OLEDs is to use the madVR tone mapping with pixel shaders outputting in HDR for a peak of 700 nits. SDR loses too much peak brightness for HDR (400 nits max) and the LG dynamic tone mapping can actually completely destroy dark scenes since it raises the overall black level. See the 2001 Space Odyssey star scene and watch as stars disappear with dynamic tone mapping. There are also some differences in color between LG and madVR, where I think madVR looks more correct. LG's dynamic tone mapping also handles 4000 nit movies rather poorly, at least on my B7. Whether there is a double tone mapping effect between madVR and the LG for this config, I don't know, but it clearly looks more accurate doing this.
I agree, it definitely is an improvement even if there is a "double tonemapping" effect going on. And that's exactly how I drive my setup and it's been amazing so far!
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Old 1st February 2019, 19:21   #54550  |  Link
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I agree, it definitely is an improvement even if there is a "double tonemapping" effect going on. And that's exactly how I drive my setup and it's been amazing so far!
I suggest you don't use LG's dynamic tone mapping at all, as I mentioned above, it does much more harm than good. I used it in the beginning as well because I had to in order to watch 4000 nit content at all before madshi fixed the HDR output for pixel shaders, but it's definitely not needed now.
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Old 1st February 2019, 20:55   #54551  |  Link
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I've gone back and forth on that one. madshi theorized that with dynamic on it wouldn't need to do as much of its own tone mapping on top of what madvr does. With the latest LG firmware they fixed a few of the issues I saw so it's definitely better, but, I'll do some more testing with it off and see if there's a big difference.
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Old 1st February 2019, 23:10   #54552  |  Link
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I really don't get why people keep praising LG's dynamic tone mapping. It's terrible and I don't ever use it. It behaves almost like a dynamic contrast setting where it brightens up most non-bright scenes that wouldn't need any tone mapping at all. I guess a more fitting term would be "bright room mode" instead of dynamic tone mapping.
Dynamic tone mapping is supposed to look similar to this. Scenes that are below the source peak get some relief from tone mapping, which will make them appear brighter as they follow PQ curve more closely. The other scenes that seem darker are probably being tone mapped. The 2018 models should be following the PQ curve in the 0-100 nits region, mostly to fix the raised blacks issue from the 2017 models. They are known to track the curve properly from the factory.

I would think you would get the best results by leaving dynamic tone mapping enabled. Using a static curve will provide no relief from tone mapping for the entire movie. This would only make sense if the display disabled its tone mapping when confronted with metadata that indicates the source is within the display's brightness. But dynamic tone mapping should already do this without needing any metadata.

I've seen some spectacular HDR on a 2018 LG OLED, so I have no reason to bash it's tone mapping.
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Old 1st February 2019, 23:15   #54553  |  Link
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That's why I currently have it enabled in my setup. There was some DEFINITE issues in previous firmware versions that seem to be fixed now. Since then I've not seen any real issues with dynamic enabled and using madvr tonemapping set to a 700 target nit. It looks fantastic to me. But then again, I don't proclaim to be an expert in this area. I'm still constantly learning and I've been playing with this since last summer.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 00:57   #54554  |  Link
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What is your screen definition? 4 GB isn't a lot for madVR with integrated graphics. Depending on the settings, VRAM usage can already take around 500 MB even for 1080p. 4K would take a bit more than 2 GB, leaving less than 2 GB for the OS and applications. Maybe your system is struggling from lack of RAM?
Watching on a 4k tv. Resolution off course is set to 38402160 on a Samsung UE55JS9000.
In MadVR I've set the scaling settings to 1080p23

It's only the beginning of the file that has a delay, the rest plays normal. If my system would struggle, shouldn't it struggle with the whole file ? Weird that it struggles in the beginning of it then.

Then I would rather have it that after the delay it starts playing from 00:00:00 audio and video.
Now it's audio after 5s and audio+video after 10s
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Old 2nd February 2019, 01:14   #54555  |  Link
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you are changing the refreshrate and the resolution by doing this your TV has to "resync"(it's the wrong word but whatever) and the time this takes is defined by your TV maybe AVR not really madVR.

a normal PC monitor can do this in about a sec or even less. TV and even worse projectors can take a long time like 5-20 secs.

a workaround would be leaving the screen at 1080p23
using a player that can start a file paused and enter fullscreen before you play.

using FSE can add even more blackscreen.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 10:40   #54556  |  Link
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you are changing the refreshrate and the resolution by doing this your TV has to "resync"(it's the wrong word but whatever) and the time this takes is defined by your TV maybe AVR not really madVR.

a normal PC monitor can do this in about a sec or even less. TV and even worse projectors can take a long time like 5-20 secs.

a workaround would be leaving the screen at 1080p23
using a player that can start a file paused and enter fullscreen before you play.

using FSE can add even more blackscreen.
Ok. Thanks for the info.

So I guess Mediaportal doesn't have such a function then ?

Anyway here's the link to the exact problem I have.
And people saying with another version they didn't have the problem.

http://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=479
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Old 2nd February 2019, 10:58   #54557  |  Link
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did you try something simply like disabling FSE?
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Old 2nd February 2019, 11:24   #54558  |  Link
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Dynamic tone mapping is supposed to look similar to this. Scenes that are below the source peak get some relief from tone mapping, which will make them appear brighter as they follow PQ curve more closely. The other scenes that seem darker are probably being tone mapped. The 2018 models should be following the PQ curve in the 0-100 nits region, mostly to fix the raised blacks issue from the 2017 models. They are known to track the curve properly from the factory.

I would think you would get the best results by leaving dynamic tone mapping enabled. Using a static curve will provide no relief from tone mapping for the entire movie. This would only make sense if the display disabled its tone mapping when confronted with metadata that indicates the source is within the display's brightness. But dynamic tone mapping should already do this without needing any metadata.

I've seen some spectacular HDR on a 2018 LG OLED, so I have no reason to bash it's tone mapping.
Not sure I'm getting what you're trying to say. Isn't tonemapping only needed because of TVs having a too low peak brightness?
As far as I know mastering monitors don't do any tonemapping, so non-bright scenes should look similar to what I see with dynamic tonemapping disabled.
Then why would it be a good thing to brighten up darker scenes?

I did a small test to see how much LGs dynamic tonemapping messes with non-bright scenes.
I just displayed a 50 nits movie scene in the background while running a grayscale sweep in HCFR.
The result shows exactly what my eyes have been seeing when using LGs dynamic tonemapping. Large deviations from the PQ, even in the lower range. With it turned off it at least follows it nicely up to like 125 nits.

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Old 2nd February 2019, 12:42   #54559  |  Link
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did you try something simply like disabling FSE?
I've just checked and it's disabled already, so that is not the solution.

I'm going to try if this maybe make a difference :

In the Devices section under the "Generic PnP Monitor", you can choose "Display modes"
and the current setting is : Switch to matching display mode...when playback starts

So maybe it makes a difference when I choose ...when media player goes fullscreen ?

I'll try it in a moment and will post the result

For now I'll leave the "restore original display mode...when mediaplayer is closed" as it is.

I've just checked and I'm using MadVR 0.92.17, that's the latest version, right ?


Update : Nothing changed, I had hoped, that would do something

Last edited by Soxbrother; 2nd February 2019 at 12:54.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 13:12   #54560  |  Link
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I've adjusted the resolution of my 4ktv to 1920x1080, now the video starts almost instantly.
I've also disabled the "Switch to matching display mode" setting, because it has no use now.

But now I'm wondering if the video would look better at it's native 1080p resolution
or if it would look better even on the 4k resolution.

Any thoughts on that ?
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