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Old 19th November 2016, 16:17   #261  |  Link
CruNcher
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Those are the Chroma issues still left we talk about a lot and they also showup in AV1 as well.

you can see them everywhere not only that sample

http://wyohknott.github.io/image-for...:1&ogv=m&bpg=m
http://wyohknott.github.io/image-for...1&webm=m&bpg=m
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Old 6th June 2017, 18:08   #262  |  Link
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There was an interesting comparison of image formats in 2016.

HEVC and Daala are on first place. Daala(or AV1 at this moment) already does better in these days

https://jpeg.org/items/20161026_press.html
https://jpeg.org/downloads/aic/wg1n7..._challenge.pdf

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Old 6th June 2017, 18:34   #263  |  Link
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Quote:
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There was an interesting comparison of image formats in 2016.

HEVC and Daala are on first place. Daala(or AV1 at this moment) already does better in these days

https://jpeg.org/items/20161026_press.html
https://jpeg.org/downloads/aic/wg1n7..._challenge.pdf
AV1 does better than it did, or better than HEVC and Daala do?

I can see a royalty-free AV1 as being an excellent still image codec, and potentially, finally, something that could replace JPEG on the web for continuous tone images.
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Old 6th June 2017, 19:23   #264  |  Link
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AV1 does better than it did, or better than HEVC and Daala do?
Both statements are fine (in the context of that JPEG comparison)
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Old 6th June 2017, 20:06   #265  |  Link
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I can see a royalty-free AV1 as being an excellent still image codec, and potentially, finally, something that could replace JPEG on the web for continuous tone images.
Don't get your hopes up. Jpeg is rather resilient. Even google couldn't popularize webp. An there were a bunch of other formats that didn't gain any traction.
To me FLIF looks interesting for images, and it's a finished format. But I don't have high hopes that I'll be seeing anything new in the browser.
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Old 8th June 2017, 01:09   #266  |  Link
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It's different. WebP was only Google's project. Even Mozilla haven't support it, heh. Nor Microsoft...
While AV1 is supported/promoted by many big players http://aomedia.org/about-us/
WebP is barely better than JPEG (~15-20%) while AV1, HEVC or Daala are considerably better than that.

Also JPEG is damn good image format. There is still no other image format with 2x better compression than JPEG.
While H.264 and HEVC already outperform MPEG-2 by more than 2x on wide range of bitrates.

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Old 8th June 2017, 05:48   #267  |  Link
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WebP is barely better than JPEG (~15-20%) while AV1, HEVC or Daala are considerably better than that.
The webp format didn't win with the whole jpeg family. The codec is also not a 16 bit. The codec AV1/Daala wasn't implemented to webp.
Apparently there is no need to do so.
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Also JPEG is damn good image format. There is still no other image format with 2x better compression than JPEG.
Waiting for JPEG XS

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Old 8th June 2017, 08:37   #268  |  Link
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It's different. WebP was only Google's project. Even Mozilla haven't support it, heh. Nor Microsoft...
While AV1 is supported/promoted by many big players http://aomedia.org/about-us/
WebP is barely better than JPEG (~15-20%) while AV1, HEVC or Daala are considerably better than that.
You mean Google's project like Webm, and VP9? Those didn't get any input from others either, yet all relevant browsers support them now.
The only difference is that there's no JPEG in video formats, which is supported by everything anywhere.


Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorC View Post
Also JPEG is damn good image format. There is still no other image format with 2x better compression than JPEG.
While H.264 and HEVC already outperform MPEG-2 by more than 2x on wide range of bitrates.
Good my *ss, people just got used to it's many artifacts.
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Old 8th June 2017, 09:38   #269  |  Link
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@ IgorC:

Obviously you don't understand the main difference between still image compression and video compression.

Motion prediction and inter-frame encoding.

One single image has no motion. No surprise there is less redundancy to spare. If you compared I-frame only MPEG-2 with I-frame only HEVC, the ratio would be similarly disappointing.
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Old 8th June 2017, 20:56   #270  |  Link
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@ IgorC:

Obviously you don't understand
Sorry to dissapoint you but I do have concept of intra-/inter- prediction. I'm not new to Doom9 and image/video/audio compression.

So keep your speech for newbies.
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Old 8th June 2017, 21:13   #271  |  Link
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Okay ... sorry for my bold expressions.

But expecting a 1:2 breakthrough in lossy still image compression sounds like a miracle to me, if I do not even expect that to happen in video compression.

Even more than the "revolutions" (e.g. something else than DCT windows) which happened from MP3 over VQF and Vorbis towards Opus in the audio world.

Something that might come at least close was V-Nova, the "noise modelling" in video compression, similar to mp3Pro and HE-AAC.
_

P.S.:

Wavelets instead of DCT was most probably not the expected miracle. At least not on its own...
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Old 8th June 2017, 21:14   #272  |  Link
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You mean Google's project like Webm, and VP9?.
Well, VP9 is considerably better than H.264 and VP8 at least on Youtube's bitrates (1080p ~1.7-2 Mbps)

While WebP is just somewhat better than JPEG.

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Good my *ss, people just got used to it's many artifacts
If it was that bad there would multiple articles about how bad JPEG was.
And it's not the case.
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Old 8th June 2017, 21:33   #273  |  Link
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But expecting a 1:2 breakthrough in lossy still image compression sounds like a miracle to me, if I do not even expect that to happen in video compression.

Even more than the "revolutions" (e.g. something else than DCT windows) which happened from MP3 over VQF and Vorbis towards Opus in the audio world.

Something that might come at least close was V-Nova, the "noise modelling" in video compression, similar to mp3Pro and HE-AAC.
Yes, 2x ratio is hard to achieve.

Considering that JPEG comparison (subjective MOS), Daala/HEVC were already approx ~1.6-1.7x of JPEG efficiency at MOS 4(perceptible but not annoying). And the efficiency is 1.2-1.4x at MOS 4.5

If AV1 will have ~10%(?) of better intra prediction then it will be ~1.8x of JPEG efficiency at MOS 4. Rough numbers.


As of audio, Opus, xHE-AAC(USAC) 80 kbps are on par with MP3 128 kbps in my experience. That's 1.6x
And a recent audio standard 3DA apparently will need ~64-72 kbps. That's 1.75-2x.

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Old 30th September 2017, 13:11   #274  |  Link
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http://wyohknott.github.io/image-for...t&ogv=s&webm=s

Daala in dark areas can more effectively save small details AV1 smears.
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Old 9th October 2017, 16:53   #275  |  Link
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Daala in dark areas can more effectively save small details AV1 smears.
Do you know that this is due to bitstream differences versus encoder differences? The libvpx series was always tuned for PSNR which can result in this kind of issue.
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Old 14th December 2017, 16:17   #276  |  Link
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Old 11th January 2018, 09:21   #277  |  Link
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I will ask this controversial question.
What about the Daala project? Is it closed, will it be resumed?
https://github.com/xiph/daala/commits/master
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Old 16th January 2018, 17:05   #278  |  Link
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I will ask this controversial question.
What about the Daala project? Is it closed, will it be resumed?
https://github.com/xiph/daala/commits/master
Daala code that proved to be useful was merged into AV1, also the developers moved to AV1.
For some background see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOMedia_Video_1
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Old 17th January 2018, 01:55   #279  |  Link
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Daala is likely to be continued after AV1 as an experimental codec. It achieved near HEVC quality levels without even nearly being finished (it doesn't even have B-Frames yet) and compared to AV1 it is much less complex. So let's see...
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Old 17th January 2018, 02:29   #280  |  Link
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Even if Daala does not develop into a competitive next-gen Internet codec. I think it has real potential to at least fill some niches:

* Still images!
* Broadcasting internal usage (replace Dirac, VC-2).
* Intermediate codec (replace ProRes).

Unfortunately, I don't see Mozilla diverting resources away from AV1 (and Opus) anytime soon.
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