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Old 28th October 2016, 17:41   #25121  |  Link
jdobbs
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It will almost always reencode because there are too many required factors that are too hard to check. The BD "basic" specification is about 1500 pages long. Yes, some obvious factors are checked (things like compliant sizing, acceptable audio parameters, etc.) and they are corrected via information in the PSEUDO folder. Others (like GOP sizes, bitrate restrictions, b-frame limits, etc) aren't checked and would require reencoding to assure they are met.

The best advice is to always reencode when you are planning playback on a BD player. The problem is that some players are very forgiving, and they will play things that aren't even close to compliant -- so the fact that it will play on a certain player isn't a good standard to use. There is no guarantee it will play on another (or even the same player following a firmware upgrade) unless the BD restrictions are met.

But if you are 100% sure that the source is already compliant -- just import and delete the PSEUDO folder from within the generated BD structure and burn.
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Old 28th October 2016, 19:12   #25122  |  Link
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Thanks, jdobbs, for the response and very helpful info. I figured that the answer would be that it's probably best to re-encode to ensure compatibility. I'd rather not alter the original stream if I didn't have to, and since I've only had issues with a small percentage of MKV's, I was hoping that there would be a simple way to determine if a steam is incompatible in advance, rather than after burning to physical media. It appears that there is not a simple way. Then again, to your point, even the ones that "work" may not be totally compliant and just happen to work in my 2 players. Thanks again.
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Old 28th October 2016, 19:26   #25123  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_A View Post
They are all 1920x1080(p) and have profile 4.1.
It is strange to have a MKV file with the video set for profile 4.1.

The profile value is just that a value, a label. In a nutshell, a 4.0 file will be less than a certain size, while 4.1 can be larger, i.e., the size used on Blu-rays.

That said, to test the file's playablility on your Blu-ray player is to do just that, play it on your Blu-ray player. But, via a USB thumbdrive. If your player can play standalone files, like MKV, via USB attached devices, or DVD/Blu-ray ROM, then place the video on a thumbdrive and see if the player will play it. If not, the player will normally tell you why. In the cases that I have run across, the file was wrapped incorrectly such that the audio was not correctly stored so that the player will not be handle it. In that case, I just re-wrap it with MKVmerge. That has fixed it every time.

As a side note, when burning the output, as suggested by Jdobbs, it is not really necessary to delete the pseudo directory. Just do not add it to the ImgBurn program. Even if you do, the Blu-ray player will ignore it. You can always add content to a Blu-ray disc that isn't part of the BDMV programming. That way you can put the disc into a computer and the extra material is considered as BD-ROM content. You could store images, PDFs, etc.
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Old 28th October 2016, 19:31   #25124  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Peter_A View Post
Then again, to your point, even the ones that "work" may not be totally compliant and just happen to work in my 2 players. Thanks again.
The players that have been released over the past few years have been designed to play all kinds of multimedia. As such, the "guts" are the same, no matter if the source is via USB or physical media. That is why content played via Blu-ray authored content will normally play even when not Blu-ray spec compliant. But, as noted in my above posting, sometimes a file may have other issues that keep the player from playing it, no matter the source.
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Old 28th October 2016, 21:07   #25125  |  Link
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The players that have been released over the past few years have been designed to play all kinds of multimedia. As such, the "guts" are the same, no matter if the source is via USB or physical media. That is why content played via Blu-ray authored content will normally play even when not Blu-ray spec compliant. But, as noted in my above posting, sometimes a file may have other issues that keep the player from playing it, no matter the source.
I can tell you that hasn't been my experience. My Sony player, for example, will play almost anything that you have on USB media -- but that same content won't play if burned to a BD structure. That's because there are lots of required interdependence between the M2TS audio/video and the other BD components (CLPI files, MPLS files, etc.) The capability of the internal chipsets can be huge -- but that won't change the requirement to stick to the standard. For example, lots of MKV files have removed the black borders on widescreen sources. That plays fine as an MKV on an USB stick. But in the BD standard there is no code (used in the CLPI and MPLS) that describes that format.
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Old 28th October 2016, 21:46   #25126  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Peter_A View Post
Thanks, jdobbs, for the response and very helpful info. I figured that the answer would be that it's probably best to re-encode to ensure compatibility. I'd rather not alter the original stream if I didn't have to, and since I've only had issues with a small percentage of MKV's, I was hoping that there would be a simple way to determine if a steam is incompatible in advance, rather than after burning to physical media. It appears that there is not a simple way. Then again, to your point, even the ones that "work" may not be totally compliant and just happen to work in my 2 players. Thanks again.
I do pretty much what you do most of the time, making files playable on my OPPO Blu-ray player (which can be VERY touchy sometimes...) So, I feel your pain about occasional MKV files that mysteriously just don't play either natively or when you place them in a BDMV folder (using TSMuxer, for example)

If you don't already have MediaInfo, I strongly suggest that you get it. It isn't always exactly right, but it will help you examine the MKV files and if you can become more familiar with the x264 settings (which I did until I became blind and sterile, and I STILL don't know much, as Sharc will tell you...) then you can open the MKV file in MediaInfo, choose 'text' in the view drop-down menu, and scroll down under the VIDEO section until you come to the x264 settings that usually start with cabac=1 ref=4, etc.

I know for my OPPO that if the ref or 'B' frames are too high for the resolution or the level (4.1) it won't play. I can fudge it a LITTLE, like get away with maybe ref=5 and B=7 on occasion, but not any higher or it simply will not play as an MKV. And, if you put that kind of file into a BDMV folder using say TSMuxer, the player still won't play it.

So, hopefully that might give you a bit of a start in being able to read these files ahead of time and maybe learn some of the 'acceptable' parameters for Blu-ray.

BUT... as JD said, you are best off with any 'off' MKV files letting BDRB re-encode them so that you KNOW that they will be compliant. It's no biggie really. When I have an MKV file that is pesky but I don't want to lose any real quality, even if the file is small, simply choose an output size slightly smaller than the MKV file size. If you choose a slightly smaller size, and then choose either 'auto' or whatever quality you want at that point, you won't lose any appreciable quality at all AND then the file will be encoded properly when done. And, as far as the audio, you can keep whatever you want.

Hope that helps...
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Old 28th October 2016, 22:34   #25127  |  Link
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@jdobbs speaking of the blu-ray spec, i may have stumbled upon an incompatibility with bdrb and the spec. I needed to use one of the bdrb rebuilt discs in a third party application. Upon starting the job of what it needed to do, it instantly jumped to complete. The problem was in hou bdrb handles removed audio & subs. I know bdrb reassigns removed streams to the first english? or available PID which technically duplicates the same ID. This somehow made the 3rd party app think there was 4+hours of audio track when the video title was only 2.5hrs long. Thus it instantly jumped to complete. The only way the 3rd party would proceed with the job was to remove the HD audio track (which the other ones were reassigned to) and then it would encode just fine.

The solution was relatively simple, Open BDEdit, go to playlist tab, STN section and remove the duplicate entries under Au and PG. Unless i missunderstood the standard each stream identifier must be unique and in ascending order, duplicate entries violate the specification. Is there anything you could perhaps look at that even though the streams are removed, the PID's are properly assigned an ascending ID or am i mistaking?
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Old 28th October 2016, 23:21   #25128  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lathe View Post
I do pretty much what you do most of the time, making files playable on my OPPO Blu-ray player (which can be VERY touchy sometimes...) So, I feel your pain about occasional MKV files that mysteriously just don't play either natively or when you place them in a BDMV folder (using TSMuxer, for example)

If you don't already have MediaInfo, I strongly suggest that you get it. It isn't always exactly right, but it will help you examine the MKV files and if you can become more familiar with the x264 settings (which I did until I became blind and sterile, and I STILL don't know much, as Sharc will tell you...) then you can open the MKV file in MediaInfo, choose 'text' in the view drop-down menu, and scroll down under the VIDEO section until you come to the x264 settings that usually start with cabac=1 ref=4, etc.

I know for my OPPO that if the ref or 'B' frames are too high for the resolution or the level (4.1) it won't play. I can fudge it a LITTLE, like get away with maybe ref=5 and B=7 on occasion, but not any higher or it simply will not play as an MKV. And, if you put that kind of file into a BDMV folder using say TSMuxer, the player still won't play it.

So, hopefully that might give you a bit of a start in being able to read these files ahead of time and maybe learn some of the 'acceptable' parameters for Blu-ray.

BUT... as JD said, you are best off with any 'off' MKV files letting BDRB re-encode them so that you KNOW that they will be compliant. It's no biggie really. When I have an MKV file that is pesky but I don't want to lose any real quality, even if the file is small, simply choose an output size slightly smaller than the MKV file size. If you choose a slightly smaller size, and then choose either 'auto' or whatever quality you want at that point, you won't lose any appreciable quality at all AND then the file will be encoded properly when done. And, as far as the audio, you can keep whatever you want.

Hope that helps...
Thanks, Lathe. You hit the nail on the head about what I'm trying to do (and determine in advance). Yes, I have been using MediaInfo, but unfortunately, I'm not knowledgeable enough (yet), to determine if any of the reported video data is out of spec. For instance, these 2 below do not work. Does anything jump out as being out of spec, on these? Thanks in advance for any insight.

MKV #1:
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 1 h 41 min
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 30.0 Mb/s
Maximum bit rate : 38.0 Mb/s
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.603
Stream size : 21.2 GiB (97%)
Title : MOVIE_1
Language : English
Default : Yes
Forced : No
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709


MKV #2:
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 1 h 36 min
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 23.0 Mb/s
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.462
Stream size : 15.5 GiB (91%)
Title : MOVIE_2
Default : Yes
Forced : No
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Old 28th October 2016, 23:25   #25129  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
For example, lots of MKV files have removed the black borders on widescreen sources. That plays fine as an MKV on an USB stick. But in the BD standard there is no code (used in the CLPI and MPLS) that describes that format.
Great example. For the project that I am working on, in order to get menus I used the YouTube 1080p promos. Those files also had the letterbox bars removed. My Sansung player played the videos, but stretched them vertically to fill the screen. So, while they violated the spec, the player played them. I did recode them and add back the bars. On the final disc, they won't be there, because hopefully the single item menu will be working.

While it isn't perfect, the idea of doing the USB thumbdrive test is to see if the file won't play period.
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Old 28th October 2016, 23:31   #25130  |  Link
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For most of my personal use now I simply process a disc using ALTERNATE output and play it back via Serviio. It's a great streaming server, and both of my Sony BD players recognize it immediately and play back flawlessly.
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Old 29th October 2016, 02:25   #25131  |  Link
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I get Blu-ray discs not just because of the movie, or TV series, but because of the special features as well. I love how movies are put together.

When it comes to TV show MKV files, I have a QNAP TS-451A NAS that is used to play the video files using Kodi 17 via HDMI thru my amp. It will also play Blu-ray ISO files, but at this time can not handle BDJava menus. It doesn't handle BD-RB menus either. It handles all of the audio formats as well. I do not use it for ISO anyway. I use the Blu-ray player for that.
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Old 29th October 2016, 03:16   #25132  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_A View Post
Thanks, Lathe. You hit the nail on the head about what I'm trying to do (and determine in advance). Yes, I have been using MediaInfo, but unfortunately, I'm not knowledgeable enough (yet), to determine if any of the reported video data is out of spec. For instance, these 2 below do not work. Does anything jump out as being out of spec, on these? Thanks in advance for any insight.

MKV #1:
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 1 h 41 min
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 30.0 Mb/s
Maximum bit rate : 38.0 Mb/s
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.603
Stream size : 21.2 GiB (97%)
Title : MOVIE_1
Language : English
Default : Yes
Forced : No
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709


MKV #2:
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 1 h 36 min
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 23.0 Mb/s
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.462
Stream size : 15.5 GiB (91%)
Title : MOVIE_2
Default : Yes
Forced : No
Unfortunately, it looks like these files have deliberately hidden the x264 settings. From one of my MKV files I'll put the part of MediaInfo below to show you what you need to look for:

: AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 1 h 27 min
Bit rate : 12.8 Mb/s
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 040 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 1.85:1
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.268
Stream size : 7.65 GiB (87%)
Writing library : x264 core 148 r2705 3f5ed56
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=4 / deblock=1:-3:-3 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=umh / subme=10 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.15:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=32 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=2 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=24 / lookahead_threads=4 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=8 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=2 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=240 / keyint_min=24 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=60 / rc=2pass / mbtree=1 / bitrate=12846 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=3:0.70
Default : Yes
Forced : No
Statistics Tags Issue : no_variable_data 1970-01-01 00:00:00 / no_variable_data 2010-02-22 21:41:29
FromStats_BitRate : 12835737
FromStats_Duration : 01:27:12.519000000
FromStats_FrameCount : 125455
FromStats_StreamSize : 8395405052

The part in bold above is what you need to look at. But, on some encodes, people deliberately change the code to hide the x264 settings. I've tried to find other ways to 'read' these files, but to no avail.

This particular one of mine is a pretty run of the mill MKV that a person may 'run across'. You can see the important parts in red. The stream itself is not set up to force Blu-ray compatibility. The ref frames at 4 should be fine for any playback. But, more importantly, there are 8 'B' frames used which is too high to play in a Blu-ray folder (BDMV) however your player MIGHT play the MKV as is. 8 is a little higher than it should be but my OPPO MIGHT play it okay, or it might stutter or choke it completely. I'll hafta play it and see...

Basically though, as I think we've all pretty much stated here, if you are definitely going to play these files in a Blu-ray format or on a hardware player, unless you know fairly thoroughly what you are doing (not that I am one to speak... ) it is ALWAYS best to use BDRB to re-encode the file as I suggested the way to do it above. That way, you don't lose quality and the resulting file will ALWAYS play as it is supposed to...
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Old 29th October 2016, 03:19   #25133  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrVideo View Post
I get Blu-ray discs not just because of the movie, or TV series, but because of the special features as well. I love how movies are put together.

When it comes to TV show MKV files, I have a QNAP TS-451A NAS that is used to play the video files using Kodi 17 via HDMI thru my amp. It will also play Blu-ray ISO files, but at this time can not handle BDJava menus. It doesn't handle BD-RB menus either. It handles all of the audio formats as well. I do not use it for ISO anyway. I use the Blu-ray player for that.
Yes, I also too love the Xtras! I don't go to all the detailed trouble that you do, but usually I will just basically encode the Movie Only onto a Blu-ray and throw the Xtras w/original menus on another DVD. For me personally, that is the simplest. That way, if I want to play the movie, I play the movie. If I want to see the Xtras, I have them with full original menus on another disc.

Or, if I don't have to compress too much, I'll do an entire disc encode, but normally I like to save the space for the film.
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Old 29th October 2016, 05:24   #25134  |  Link
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You don't have to lose the extras. You can add the entire set together and output to MKV in batch mode. The only thing you drop is the menus.
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Old 29th October 2016, 08:11   #25135  |  Link
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I don't go to all the detailed trouble that you do, but usually I will just basically encode the Movie Only onto a Blu-ray and throw the Xtras w/original menus on another DVD.
Samsung will not play Blu-ray authored formats burned to DVD. Unless it is on Blu-ray media, it will not play it. I find that a little stupid, but that is what they decided.
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Old 29th October 2016, 08:26   #25136  |  Link
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Samsung will not play Blu-ray authored formats burned to DVD. Unless it is on Blu-ray media, it will not play it. I find that a little stupid, but that is what they decided.
Very much the same with other (and newer) standalones.
Old SONYs were pretty tolerant. This has definitely changed for the worse, for obvious reasons.
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Old 29th October 2016, 09:34   #25137  |  Link
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.... Another question, which may be off-topic, but is there an easy way to tell if the video stream in an MKV file is BD-compliant? .....
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...19&postcount=1

or draw your conclusions from the info you find here:
https://sites.google.com/site/x264bluray/

Not sure what you mean by "easy way", but check this against the MediaInfo (or similar) report.
Applies for the video part only. Audio etc. must be compliant as well. (And the medium itself .....)
Many reasons for BD-RB to decide to re-encode.

Last edited by Sharc; 29th October 2016 at 10:33.
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Old 29th October 2016, 13:27   #25138  |  Link
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@ Lathe; RE: In response to Peter_A,
Unfortunately, it looks like these files have deliberately hidden the x264 settings.
I love mediainfo but then I use exiftool(-k) to get a second opinion on any troublesome files. Its a free open source file info reader that handles just about any type of media file and really gets down in the minutiae of file info. Check it out Peter_A,
(http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/)

One of it's features is •Decodes a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma, lol.

Last edited by worknstiff; 29th October 2016 at 13:29.
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Old 29th October 2016, 13:58   #25139  |  Link
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Very much the same with other (and newer) standalones.
Old SONYs were pretty tolerant. This has definitely changed for the worse, for obvious reasons.
You'll find that as long as you output in movie-only mode they will play even on Samsung (I have a Samsung player also). Full backups not so much. But with BD discs as cheap as they are these days, it's really not much cost savings to go to BD-5/9 anymore.
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Old 29th October 2016, 16:12   #25140  |  Link
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You'll find that as long as you output in movie-only mode they will play even on Samsung (I have a Samsung player also). Full backups not so much. But with BD discs as cheap as they are these days, it's really not much cost savings to go to BD-5/9 anymore.
Yes, you are right. It's only those "ancient" BD5/9 with a menu which fail on my Samsung and LG. Easy enough to recompile these on BD25, or stream the .m2ts via NAS (or Serviio) to the TV.
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