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28th April 2014, 01:27 | #26261 | Link | ||
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There are movies that reduce the shutter exposure timing in some sequences. One famous example is 'Saving Private Ryan' (beach sequence). More info here. Ironically, the photography director said: 'By applying 45 degree shutter, we are achieving certain staccato in actor’s movement. We are achieving certain crispiness of explosions. Everything becomes slightly, just slightly more realistic'. This confirm what DragonQ just said: more frames seem to look closer to reality than less. Also, we have to remember that 24 FPS is not necessarily a visual preference of filmmakers, but a very old industry standard. Last edited by Delerue; 28th April 2014 at 02:28. |
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28th April 2014, 01:57 | #26262 | Link | |
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You can have very sharp images with no blur at all, but it will look like a stop-motion picture, rather than producing smooth movement. A fast panning shot needs more motion blur than a slow panning shot to avoid judder. At high framerates, less motion blur is required because there's more information that allows you to track motion smoothly. High framerate content is very different from interpolated content. While HFR video may have looked strange in The Hobbit, it's only because we haven't been exposed to something like that our whole lives, as we have with 24fps. Give it some time and you will soon get used to HFR content, and anything less will look terrible. |
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28th April 2014, 02:05 | #26263 | Link |
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soap operas and a lot of tv content was shot with cheaper 50i/60i cameras, which is why smooth content got the name "soap opera" effect.
Overall, the soap opera effect is MORE NATURAL, as 24fps clearly is not enough for human eyes. Movie content is actually unnatural and fake (when compared to reality, which is super smoooooth). Bottom line: The higher the framerate, the better. 48fps movies are a great improvement upon the old 24fps standard. However, our eyes can perceive more than 48fps, but it should already be much less obvious, especially with scrolling credits Frame Interpolation works in certain cases and always comes with major drawbacks (quality, accuracy, performance). perfect interpolation is impossible. |
28th April 2014, 04:35 | #26265 | Link | |
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28th April 2014, 04:44 | #26266 | Link | |||
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A good FI algo can do wonders in the right hands even without eliminating captured blur (or creating unwanted artifacts like SVP when interpolating this blur). I wonder why non of the commercial software players tried to write a good FI for their products. Anyway, its up to madshi and probably not till v1.0, or ever..? Quote:
Try this: HFR Samples The more you watch HFR videos the quicker your eye "breaks in" into the new (and better IMO) experience. Soon enough 24fps will become 20th century left over junk. I can almost guarantee that the studios will be converting old 24fps material into HFR as soon as the new blu ray standard comes out. The Hobbit series will obviousley be the first to appear.
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System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410. Last edited by James Freeman; 28th April 2014 at 10:41. |
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28th April 2014, 06:01 | #26267 | Link |
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Presentation glitches 87.10
I have just noticed that I am getting significant 'presentation glitches after I switch from 'forced film' 24hz refresh on monitor and smooth motion on
If i disable auto detect , I get multiple dropped frames in the forced movie (or video) option and , of course, it forces the monitor to be in 24hz for the old movies i tend to watch. i check all the movies/videos i watch with 'media info' f for whatever info i can get on whether it is interlaced or not and never really sure on the fps listed when i watch these old movies -usually either isos i made from dvd mpg-2 some are interleaved, some are listed as progressive and all of that is still pretty mysterious to me, but play back and the de interlace option may become necessary . i often uncheck the madvr deinterlace all together or use the disable if not sure I use ffdshow external filters as they have worked best for m y overall movie/video preferences and use the latest available from source forge and de interlace there when needed. If i watch this type of movie in forced movie i get all kinds of frame drops, if i keep the auto detect enabled, and put the refresh rate to 60hz i get a fine picture, more or less with some blur with the smooth motion but 3-6frames adding to the presentation glitch tally as i keep the control+J osd on for these changes. the frame drops are quite noticeable if i leave force movie w/24refresh. which also is forced on my monitor when checked. at least as i have things configured all down the line. i use reclock sometimes and the 'treat 25 as 24fps' checked for reclock and uncheck it if i opt out of reclock to find best way to watch. profiles are fine however way too much for all the different movies, i would have to start to make individual profiles for individual movies and then not be able to keep track of which is which since many of these old movies are from public domain and in all kinds of different formats. I seem to have most issues with the mpeg-2 from iso and the 'streaming video' mp4, mpeg4 , wmv are ok though the avi divx are often glitchy , too in mpc-be/mad vr. use plenty of gpu resources , or can, if i do not alter options for each movie/video. this combo does, in most cases, show a far better final outcome than my commercial movie players from the 2 or 3major companies. i tend to use them only in last resort. even with 6000+'presentation glitches' and not all the way through a 58 or 64min movie the picture and lip sync are excellent. so, i am not really sure what the glitches actually are. i read from other posts that it may be in the ffdshow and/or mpc-be components and i do check them as well along the way. only use deinterlacing sometimes, debanding rarely and disable the 'shaders' totally other than sometimes the 'greyscale' for old avi/dvix which can have a greenish tint. just my more recent experiences since going to 87.10
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28th April 2014, 07:40 | #26268 | Link | |
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The reason why it looks so strange is because quite often there is little to no motion blur. We see things in comparatively high frame rate but with motion blur in fast moving areas. When looking at 'An Unexpected Journey' the HFR helps in 3D as Peter claimed but it looked very weird and soap opera-ish overall. Thankfully Peter improved the process in The Desolation of Smaug and applied selective motion blur to certain scenes making is a lot more natural.. it still wasn't perfect but I'm sure it'll mature in time. |
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28th April 2014, 14:32 | #26270 | Link | |
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Without frame interpolation, you have visual artifacts too, namely motion judder. So in many scenes you have unsmooth motion + judder artifacts. With interpolation, you'd have smooth motion + interpolation artifacts. Don't judge for other people what is best. Frame interpolation is a standard feature of current TVs and I think many users would like to have it on a PC monitor. I know SVP, but it never worked well for me in terms of performance. Anyway, I think with a GPU like Tahiti or greater, such a feature (efficiently done) would be no real problem in terms of performance. And GM204 will most likely be released this year. |
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28th April 2014, 15:50 | #26271 | Link | |||||
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at long as SM gets used with high Frame rate it doesn't good job of hiding this. BTW. a lot of TV does the same when set to 23p... Quote:
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28th April 2014, 17:06 | #26272 | Link | ||
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I see judder with it. Hard to describe it, a little bit like ghosting. And not just with camera pans, also with moving objects (also on plasma).
Everything below 30fps can't look smooth by definition. Quote:
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There are TVs with better frame interpolation though. |
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28th April 2014, 17:31 | #26274 | Link | ||
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Read about it: Here This kind of blur happens when your brain expects the image/object to be in a different place (in motion) while the image is still in the last place. Its in your brain. Shorter draw distance between a moving object (frame interpolation) can decrease this greatly. Flickering the image for a fraction of a second (1-2 ms) like a CRT, can eliminate this kind of blur completely (for your brain). Black Frame Insertion (BFI) tries to emulate that by shortening the displayed image time by substituting the rest of the same frame with black frames (ie: 240 Hz TV playing 24p content will show 1 frame of the film and 9 frames of black, for each movie frame). Quote:
As long as the Audio & Video are synced, I don't mind few seconds of lag at all. Do you know the lag of a stand alone Blu-Ray player...? it can be anything. EDIT: @neuron2 Sorry about that, You posted while I was typing. Although I think this conversation is about: Frame Interpolation would be great as part of madvr.
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28th April 2014, 17:38 | #26275 | Link |
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It's well known that I don't accept feature requests at the moment. Also frame interpolation was already discussed multiple times in the past. So I agree with neuron2. Please discuss frame interpolation in a new thread, if you must. Thanks, guys.
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28th April 2014, 18:16 | #26276 | Link | |||||||||
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Now let's look at 720p50/60 content: For this I don't have to detect film vs. video, I just have to detect the underlying cadence and that already tells me everything I need to do. So decimating 720p50/60 content is much easier than handling unknown interlaced content. Basically, madVR could already be able *right now* to automatically handle any 720p50/60 content and decimate whatever needs to be decimated. So you could enable madVR decimation for progressive content and you'd never ever have to disable it again. E.g. consider watching TV broadcasts in real time: There'll be a movie (3:2 frame cadence), then there'll be some ads (maybe 3:2, or 2:2, or 1:1 frame cadence). madVR's cadence detection should auto detect all that and can then throw away just the duplicate frames. The nice thing is that everything could be done automatically. However, here comes the catch: There's a chance that the cadence could change back and forth multiple times in a short time period, e.g. from one advertisement spot to the next. We do not really want madVR to switch refresh rates all the time when that happens, do we? So running at 60Hz makes some sense because it can handle any cadence, and smooth motion takes take of 3:2 content, too. Of course I understand that if you know for a fact that your content is really film only, and every part of it is 3:2 cadence, then there's no need to use 60Hz and you can simply use 23Hz instead. But this once again requires your input: You need to tell madVR that you know that the content is straight 23Hz all the way through. Maybe I should add an option for that. But for the majority of users, letting madVR do everything automatically is preferable, and that's why currently I'm staying at 60Hz. Anyway, that's just the current situation. I've some ideas for future builds. At the moment I've just implemented 720p50/60 decimation for the first time, so please just test whether it generally works, report bugs/problems you find, and please live for now with whatever shortcomings there might be. Once we've ironed out whatever bugs there might be, maybe I'll polish the whole thing to make everyone happy. (I don't want any suggestions/ideas at this point, just bug reports or confirmations that everything works as expected within the limits of the current implementation.) Quote:
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Anyway, currently madVR's forced film mode is somewhat stupid in that it doesn't switch refresh rates based on the detected cadence. Implementing refresh rate switching based on detected cadence would be possible, but difficult, because the cadence can change all the time and we don't want the refresh rate to change all the time. I have some ideas on how to maybe solve this in the future, but for now forcing film mode on always naively switches to 23Hz. That's a known limitation of the current forced film mode implementation. Quote:
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This has been asked by other users, as well, but I don't accept feature requests at the moment. I'd have to add a whole new settings section just for this, and I don't consider it important at this time. There will probably a switch for this in madVR v1.0, but probably not before... |
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28th April 2014, 18:19 | #26277 | Link |
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madshi, may I ask what is considered important at this advanced stage (in comparison to other renderers) of madVR?
Because when this thread does not run on madVR testing/questions/bugs/GPU benchmark, it runs on feature requests...
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System: i7 3770K, GTX660, Win7 64bit, Panasonic ST60, Dell U2410. Last edited by James Freeman; 28th April 2014 at 18:23. |
28th April 2014, 19:20 | #26279 | Link | |
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These options sometimes help improving rendering performance/reliability. However, some systems have problems with these options. Especially nVidia Optimus systems used to have problems with that (not sure if that's true, anymore). So you can experiment with these to check if they improve anything for you. Or just leave them at the default settings (which is off). |
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28th April 2014, 20:56 | #26280 | Link | |
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
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