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Old 10th October 2021, 02:06   #1  |  Link
sp4ce_c0wb0y
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Weird artifacts in PAL Cowboy Bebop DVD

I'm trying to rip, de-interlace and re-encode my copy of Cowboy Bebop. The DVDs themselves are region 4/PAL format.

I was able to rip them properly with MakeMKV and now have several interlaced MPEG-2 files. I setup QTGMC to try an de-interlace these, but I kept noticing weird artifacts. Looking at just the MPEG-2 files in a video player with de-interlacing turned off, it seems like there's an outline of things in the previous or next frame.

At this point I read a ton on 3:2 pull down, frame blending, etc. It seems like the frames are blended a little bit (maybe 24fps forced into 25fps?) but I've never done this before so I'm not really sure what was actually done to this copy. I've attached a screenshot that show this. Here's the clip that the screenshot is from: https://anonfiles.com/3aa8KfMeuf/outlines_mp4

I'm looking for help identifying what exactly was done to this DVD and how I might mitigate this. Additionally any advice on how use QTGMC properly with this would be useful. Thank you.
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Old 20th October 2021, 05:55   #2  |  Link
manono
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I thought you said you made an MKV. I downloaded something named outlines.mp4_69651.exe and promptly deleted it. No one wants an MKV anyway. Use DGIndex to demux 10 seconds or so of a VOB and then make the resulting M2V available.

And then please use a site that doesn't try to trick people into downloading something other than what they want.
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Old 20th October 2021, 12:49   #3  |  Link
sp4ce_c0wb0y
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manono View Post
I thought you said you made an MKV. I downloaded something named outlines.mp4_69651.exe and promptly deleted it. No one wants an MKV anyway. Use DGIndex to demux 10 seconds or so of a VOB and then make the resulting M2V available.

And then please use a site that doesn't try to trick people into downloading something other than what they want.
I ripped my DVDs with makeMKV so all the files I had from that are in mkv format. I made the mp4 clip by cutting a couple seconds out of those using ffmpeg (making sure to copy, not re-encode, the video stream). I made it an mp4 out of habit/convenience.

I'm not sure how or why you got an .exe from anonfiles... I just downloaded the clip from the link in my original post to be sure and got a normal .mp4 that plays as expected. Regardless, if there's a preferred file hosting site for this forum please tell me and I'll use that.

I tried using DGindex (from here https://www.videohelp.com/software/DGMPGDec) to open the .VOB files on the DVD itself but the playback is messed up and I pretty quickly get several "Caught an exception during decoding! Continue?" messages. What am I missing? Should I copy the .VOB files onto my harddrive first?
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Old 20th October 2021, 12:59   #4  |  Link
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Yes, you may use Smart Ripper for that. MakeMKV won't offer a 1:1 backup for DVD, only for Blu-ray.
That artifact you showed may come from improper resizing of interlaced content while editing or prior to encoding.
One field's content is leaking into the other field.
Here it could have been spoilt by post-production:
Sharpening interlaced content by somebody assuming he could do that as he would with frame-based content.
Find the sharpening kernel and undo that first, then QTGMC.
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Last edited by Emulgator; 20th October 2021 at 13:11.
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Old 20th October 2021, 17:19   #5  |  Link
sp4ce_c0wb0y
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emulgator View Post
Yes, you may use Smart Ripper for that. MakeMKV won't offer a 1:1 backup for DVD, only for Blu-ray.
That artifact you showed may come from improper resizing of interlaced content while editing or prior to encoding.
One field's content is leaking into the other field.
Here it could have been spoilt by post-production:
Sharpening interlaced content by somebody assuming he could do that as he would with frame-based content.
Find the sharpening kernel and undo that first, then QTGMC.
Thank you, the part I was missing for DGIndex was using smart ripper. Here's a clip of from the show showing the outlines in question: https://www.mediafire.com/file/gsj2p...muxed.m2v/file

Can you explain more about what you think happened to this? Could the improper resizing be from NTSC resolution to PAL? For the sharpening can you tell me which avisynth module you're thinking of in particular?

Last edited by sp4ce_c0wb0y; 20th October 2021 at 17:55. Reason: speeling
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Old 20th October 2021, 17:19   #6  |  Link
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The mp4 is field blended, but I've seen far worse. Try Srestore.
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Old 20th October 2021, 17:55   #7  |  Link
videoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sp4ce_c0wb0y View Post
I'm trying to rip, de-interlace and re-encode my copy of Cowboy Bebop.
Your taste in anime is stellar.
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Old 20th October 2021, 19:00   #8  |  Link
sp4ce_c0wb0y
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Originally Posted by Richard1485 View Post
The mp4 is field blended, but I've seen far worse. Try Srestore.
Looking at this it says it requires a progressive input. Are there any special considerations for what de-interlacer to use if I know I'm going to use Srestore afterwords?

Do you think the field blending is just a bad conversion of the NTSC DVD? I ask because if all I have is a field-blended, up-scaled version of that it would probably make more sense just to go and try to get an NTSC copy?
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Old 20th October 2021, 19:10   #9  |  Link
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The Bluray version looks 1000x better. Why waste time with the dvd?
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Old 20th October 2021, 19:19   #10  |  Link
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Are there any special considerations for what de-interlacer to use if I know I'm going to use Srestore afterwords?
No. Use whatever you like. Most people use QTGMC because of the quality of its output. I use Yadif/Yadifmod(2) for a reasonable compromise between speed and quality.
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Originally Posted by sp4ce_c0wb0y View Post
I ask because if all I have is a field-blended, up-scaled version of that it would probably make more sense just to go and try to get an NTSC copy?
That's what I'd do in your situation. Of course, there's no guarantee that the NTSC equivalent will be better, but it usually is in my experience.

EDIT: ChaosKing posted while I was typing. It sounds as if the BD is your best bet. Is there a particular reason for wanting the DVD?

Last edited by Richard1485; 20th October 2021 at 19:24.
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Old 20th October 2021, 19:20   #11  |  Link
Asmodian
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Originally Posted by ChaosKing View Post
The Bluray version looks 1000x better. Why waste time with the dvd?
Yes, they did a pretty good job on the blurays, they look MUCH better than the NTSC DVDs.
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Old 20th October 2021, 20:04   #12  |  Link
sp4ce_c0wb0y
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The short version is that blurays are all based off of the "remix" version of cowboy bebop and most of the changes are, at least IMO, pretty bad hence why I'm trying to rip my copy properly.

If you don't really care about the details of what was changed then please skip the rest of this. I'm just going to list some of the changes I remember off the top of my head:
-Gunshot sound at the end of the first episode was replaced with what sounds like someone punching cardboard
-Music in the episode preview for the last episode was replaced. Instead of the mournful jazz it's this weird upbeat loop.
-The entire series seems to have been put through a brightening filter and washes out all the colors. It's like they just turned up the gamma because they thought even stuff in shadow should be easily visible.
-About 30s of episode 5 (scene of establishing shots) is just gone in the remix.
-There is at least one point where some of Spike's dialogue was cut. iirc it's not super important but.. why?
-I could go on.
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Old 20th October 2021, 20:23   #13  |  Link
Asmodian
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Well, I am not THAT big a fan.

I also did rip the NTSC DVDs. They aren't field blended at least.
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Old 20th October 2021, 22:55   #14  |  Link
sp4ce_c0wb0y
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Well, I am not THAT big a fan.

I also did rip the NTSC DVDs. They aren't field blended at least.
So I guess my next question is do my PAL DVDs have any value?

What I mean is they're higher resolution than the NTSC ones, but if they're just upscaled+sped up/frame blended from the NTSC version then I could theoretically do that myself (sans blending) from an NTSC copy. On the other hand if they both came from the same high quality 24fps source (probably the same source they used to make the blurays?) then there's a potential trade off - higher resolution vs. damage done converting to PAL (which I can mitigate).

Is there any way to determine if my copy is just upscaled NTSC or if it's a bad conversion from source?
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Old 20th October 2021, 23:14   #15  |  Link
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The PAL DVDs are field blended, so of course they are a bad conversion. Slightly higher resolution, whether real or a consequence of upscaling, is no compensation for the damage caused by field blending.
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So I guess my next question is do my PAL DVDs have any value?
That depends. Do they have different extras or audio tracks compared to the NTSC? Different color timing? Wait until you get the NTSC discs, compare them, and decide for yourself.
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Old 21st October 2021, 18:08   #16  |  Link
ognirats
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PAL DVDs are only worth when they use new scans. Transfers are pretty much useless
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