madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted) - Page 2181

Pat357 · 4th May 2017, 19:48

Of course the 2nd option is better !
Luma is far more important in the way we see images/movies than chroma.
So the most of your GPU-power you have available should be spend on Image doubling/resizing/processing and the rest you can use for the not-so-important chroma doubling/resizing.
I think it's a basic fact that most of us agree upon, that your luma (image) algorithm should always superior compared to your algorithm for chroma doubling/resizing.
(Or at least the same)
This is not the case in your first example, but for your second it is the case.

If your sources are of good quality, I would also try NGU Sharp for image doubling instead of NGU AA, it should look better and much sharper. Try and see ! ;-)
NGU AA is really perfect for heavy aliased sources or sources encoded on to low bit-rate.
For chroma you can choose the algorithm depending on how much resources (=GPU-power) you have left after first ensuring that the luma (image)-processing has been optimised.
I use Bicubic 60 AR, Lanczos AR, Jinc AR and very rare NGU-AA low for chroma.
For Image doubling I have different NGU algo's, depending on the source (quality,fps,resolution,..)

cork_OS · 4th May 2017, 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tobiwan

What is better?

chroma NGU AA / image Lanczos upscaling or chroma Lanczos / NGU AA doubling

It's so boring to see such questions again and again.
If you didn't see the difference, ANY settings are equal for you.

Tobiwan · 4th May 2017, 20:46

Thank you Pat357 for the very helpful information!

arrgh · 4th May 2017, 20:48

"There are 3 possible HTPC level configurations, when using madVR:

(1) Display wants 0-255. GPU and madVR are consequently also both set to 0-255.

This is the most recommended setup because it doesn't (shouldn't) have any banding problems, and still has all video, desktop and games with correct black/white levels. In this case test patterns need to have black at 0,0,0, obviously.
...
"

this Statement was made my madshi somwhere in the Forums...
I have to admit that I'm strugling somewhat with the "patterns need to have black at 0,0,0"-part...
I tried to dodge this by using madTPG with HCFR via LAN, in the hope that they would use automatically the correct patterns, but failed up to now to pass the Firewalls...

Therefore my question : are these "special" Patterns, if yes, are they available on the net, so one could use them with MPC-BE/madVR manually?

the scond part of the question : if the calibration is done like this than it aplies only to the MPC-BE/madVR-chain, correct? If one changes to life-TV (e.g. Windows Media Center) than the calibration is broken since Windows Players don't use 3rd-party rederers, correct? That aplies also to the newest Version of Win10x64, with all the new HDR capabilities?

Thanks for any hint

huhn · 5th May 2017, 00:57

windows is outputting 0-255 to the driver.
there are so many test pattern for the black level i don't even know where to start.

maybe this 0 is black on this test pattern: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

or this 16 is black on this test pattern: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...libration.html

is not that complicated at all it mostly comes down to your TV setting and if it is able to to use full range RGB or not.

Knight77 · 5th May 2017, 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Q-the-STORM

If you don't need HDR and everything else is working, don't update.

Well I need HDR, but with the current configuration it works: it passthrough to my TV that actually automatically switch from Cinema to HDR.

Mark Regalo · 5th May 2017, 18:14

madVR's output goes blank yet the audio plays fine when resuming a paused video after wakeup from hibernation. MPC Nightly, LAV Filters, Windows 10, GTX 670.

Also, when the screen is set to turn off after x minutes and a player is paused, I hear a beep from the motherboard and the system has to be restarted.

huhn · 5th May 2017, 18:37

about the PC restarting issue.

have a look at the event viewer there should be an entry with the process that is making the problem (which is unlikely to be madVR)

oddball · 5th May 2017, 18:51

HDR no worky.

Creators update set to HDR mode (Check).
LG OLED B6 (4K/UHD) shows HDR top right corner(Check).
MadVR set to DX11 fullscreen exclusive, 10bit or higher, HDR passthru, Send HDR metadata ticked and Win10 API ticked (also tried Nvidia)(Check).
AMD RX480 with latest drivers set to 4:2:2 YCbCr 10bit or 12bit (Check).
Using MPC-BE with LAV filters DirectX Copyback (Also tried DirectX Native and none).

Iimage is washed out as always. Only Win10 Film and TV player plays it correctly with HDR 'POP'.

I don't know what else to try.

huhn · 5th May 2017, 19:03

Quote:

* added support for sending HDR metadata via win10 (not tested yet)

i guess it is still waiting time for AMD/win 10 API user.

mrmojo666 · 5th May 2017, 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by huhn

i guess it is still waiting time for AMD/win 10 API user.

sorry for asking

i thought this forum is the place to report bugs, isn't it ? there is another place for reporting?

http://forum.doom9.net/showthread.ph...87#post1805987

thanks

cork_OS · 5th May 2017, 19:27

I've seen this image several years ago:

Seems it's time to make something similar with current madVR algorithms, so I've tried to create a bunch of presets which I would use with different videocards:

Code:

Preset		Chroma upscale	Image upscale		Image downscale	Dithering	Smooth Motion	Artifact removal
Low (def.)	Bicubic60	Lanczos3*		Bicubic150	Ordered Dithering	No	No
Normal		sxbr100-125	NGU AA/std (low)**	Bicubic150	Ordered Dithering	Yes	Debanding
Above Normal	NGU AA (low)	NGU AA/std (medium)	Bicubic150	Error Diffusion		Yes	Debanding
High		NGU AA (med)	NGU AA/std (high)	SSIM1D		Error Diffusion		Yes	Debanding, Deringing
Extreme		Reconstruction	NGU AA/std (very high)	SSIM2D		Error Diffusion		Yes	Debanding, Deringing

*  - AR is recommended for sharp scalers like Lanczos, although it may be enabled everywhere if there are some performance room;
** - there are several alternatives like sxbr100-125, Jinc AR.

Some notes:
- madVR settings below Lowest (f.e. with DXVA or Bilinear scaling) is nonsense, you should use another render instead (like EVR);
- FSE mode is very capricious, in my opinion it should be disabled by default (until you have 10+ bit display);
- rendering time must be somewhat less than frame time, in case of SVP - less than vsync time;
- as has been repeatedly stated, image/luma upscaling settings is much more important than chroma;
- presets listed above are moderately sharp for my taste. You can raise it with sharpeners or SR (f.e. for low scaling coeff Lanczos4AR+SR1 is faster and sharper than NGU sharp).

Criticism is welcome.

huhn · 5th May 2017, 19:29

you are not wrong here.

another place is this one: http://bugs.madshi.net/view_all_bug_...d=4&dummy=bla/

reported HDR issues are a lot right now i'm pretty sure he is aware of the problem/reports.

the win 10 api isn't tested so people should know it may not work.
nothign wrong with reporting the windows version and test setup of cause.

Neo-XP · 5th May 2017, 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by cork_OS

Criticism is welcome.

Deringing is not recommended by madshi with NGU.
It causes weird artifacts around the edges when used with this algo.

Asmodian · 5th May 2017, 20:33

Yes, the reduce ringing artifact removal option should definitely not be enabled by default when using NGU.

mrmojo666 · 5th May 2017, 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by huhn

you are not wrong here.

another place is this one: http://bugs.madshi.net/view_all_bug_...d=4&dummy=bla/

reported HDR issues are a lot right now i'm pretty sure he is aware of the problem/reports.

the win 10 api isn't tested so people should know it may not work.
nothign wrong with reporting the windows version and test setup of cause.

thank you !

i didn't know that is is possible to report myself issues on bugtracker

cool i'll try to report there in the weekend

nevcairiel · 5th May 2017, 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by cork_OS

Criticism is welcome.

Some points:
- Smooth Motion is IMHO not a quality related setting and should be activated when you need/want it, not generally always, and not as part of a quality preset.
- Reconstruction Chroma is a bit peculiar sometimes. It can look great, but it can also look terrible. Its not something I would advise without special notice.
- IMHO Error Diffusion dithering is usually just a waste of power, and it can cost quite a lot, even more so with Smooth Motion, usually better to spend the GPU power elsewhere

Ver Greeneyes · 5th May 2017, 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-XP

Deringing is not recommended by madshi with NGU.

Does that include NGU AA? I remember people saying that it actually helps with NGU AA.

MariaX9 · 5th May 2017, 23:26

Anyone knows if i choose "lets madVR decide" in downscaling algo does it use for example SSIM 1D 100 AR or SSIM 1D 100 AR linear light? and should i tick "scale in linear light" on the image downscaling page?

bcec · 6th May 2017, 05:03

I am seeing choppy playback wit madvr for 4K HEVC content. For instance, for a movie with 23.976fps, my average and max rendering stats are staying under 30ms, but my decoder/upload/render queues are not filling, resulting in a very choppy playback and constant dropped frames. I have a 980TI coupled with an i7 and 16GB ram.

Besides 4K HEVC problem, regular bluray 1080->2160 upscaling with NNEDI364 is running butter smooth on my ring. Any ideas/tips/tricks to get the queues fill?

4th May 2017, 19:48	#43601 \| Link
Pat357 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 452	Of course the 2nd option is better ! Luma is far more important in the way we see images/movies than chroma. So the most of your GPU-power you have available should be spend on Image doubling/resizing/processing and the rest you can use for the not-so-important chroma doubling/resizing. I think it's a basic fact that most of us agree upon, that your luma (image) algorithm should always superior compared to your algorithm for chroma doubling/resizing. (Or at least the same) This is not the case in your first example, but for your second it is the case. If your sources are of good quality, I would also try NGU Sharp for image doubling instead of NGU AA, it should look better and much sharper. Try and see ! ;-) NGU AA is really perfect for heavy aliased sources or sources encoded on to low bit-rate. For chroma you can choose the algorithm depending on how much resources (=GPU-power) you have left after first ensuring that the luma (image)-processing has been optimised. I use Bicubic 60 AR, Lanczos AR, Jinc AR and very rare NGU-AA low for chroma. For Image doubling I have different NGU algo's, depending on the source (quality,fps,resolution,..) Last edited by Pat357; 4th May 2017 at 20:16. Reason: clarification

4th May 2017, 20:48	#43604 \| Link
arrgh Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 128	calibration with madTPG and/or HCFR "There are 3 possible HTPC level configurations, when using madVR: (1) Display wants 0-255. GPU and madVR are consequently also both set to 0-255. This is the most recommended setup because it doesn't (shouldn't) have any banding problems, and still has all video, desktop and games with correct black/white levels. In this case test patterns need to have black at 0,0,0, obviously. ... " this Statement was made my madshi somwhere in the Forums... I have to admit that I'm strugling somewhat with the "patterns need to have black at 0,0,0"-part... I tried to dodge this by using madTPG with HCFR via LAN, in the hope that they would use automatically the correct patterns, but failed up to now to pass the Firewalls... Therefore my question : are these "special" Patterns, if yes, are they available on the net, so one could use them with MPC-BE/madVR manually? the scond part of the question : if the calibration is done like this than it aplies only to the MPC-BE/madVR-chain, correct? If one changes to life-TV (e.g. Windows Media Center) than the calibration is broken since Windows Players don't use 3rd-party rederers, correct? That aplies also to the newest Version of Win10x64, with all the new HDR capabilities? Thanks for any hint

5th May 2017, 19:27	#43612 \| Link
cork_OS Registered User Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 160	madVR performance presets I've seen this image several years ago: Seems it's time to make something similar with current madVR algorithms, so I've tried to create a bunch of presets which I would use with different videocards: Code: Preset Chroma upscale Image upscale Image downscale Dithering Smooth Motion Artifact removal Low (def.) Bicubic60 Lanczos3* Bicubic150 Ordered Dithering No No Normal sxbr100-125 NGU AA/std (low)** Bicubic150 Ordered Dithering Yes Debanding Above Normal NGU AA (low) NGU AA/std (medium) Bicubic150 Error Diffusion Yes Debanding High NGU AA (med) NGU AA/std (high) SSIM1D Error Diffusion Yes Debanding, Deringing Extreme Reconstruction NGU AA/std (very high) SSIM2D Error Diffusion Yes Debanding, Deringing * - AR is recommended for sharp scalers like Lanczos, although it may be enabled everywhere if there are some performance room; ** - there are several alternatives like sxbr100-125, Jinc AR. Some notes: - madVR settings below Lowest (f.e. with DXVA or Bilinear scaling) is nonsense, you should use another render instead (like EVR); - FSE mode is very capricious, in my opinion it should be disabled by default (until you have 10+ bit display); - rendering time must be somewhat less than frame time, in case of SVP - less than vsync time; - as has been repeatedly stated, image/luma upscaling settings is much more important than chroma; - presets listed above are moderately sharp for my taste. You can raise it with sharpeners or SR (f.e. for low scaling coeff Lanczos4AR+SR1 is faster and sharper than NGU sharp). Criticism is welcome. __________________ I'm infected with poor sources. Last edited by cork_OS; 5th May 2017 at 19:30.

5th May 2017, 20:33	#43615 \| Link
Asmodian Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: San Jose, California Posts: 4,407	Yes, the reduce ringing artifact removal option should definitely not be enabled by default when using NGU. __________________ madVR options explained

4th May 2017, 20:46	#43603 \| Link
Tobiwan Registered User Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Germany Posts: 31	Thank you Pat357 for the very helpful information!

5th May 2017, 00:57	#43605 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,926	windows is outputting 0-255 to the driver. there are so many test pattern for the black level i don't even know where to start. maybe this 0 is black on this test pattern: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php or this 16 is black on this test pattern: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...libration.html is not that complicated at all it mostly comes down to your TV setting and if it is able to to use full range RGB or not.

5th May 2017, 18:14	#43607 \| Link
Mark Regalo Registered User Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 24	madVR's output goes blank yet the audio plays fine when resuming a paused video after wakeup from hibernation. MPC Nightly, LAV Filters, Windows 10, GTX 670. Also, when the screen is set to turn off after x minutes and a player is paused, I hear a beep from the motherboard and the system has to be restarted.

5th May 2017, 18:37	#43608 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,926	about the PC restarting issue. have a look at the event viewer there should be an entry with the process that is making the problem (which is unlikely to be madVR)

5th May 2017, 18:51	#43609 \| Link
oddball Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,264	HDR no worky. Creators update set to HDR mode (Check). LG OLED B6 (4K/UHD) shows HDR top right corner(Check). MadVR set to DX11 fullscreen exclusive, 10bit or higher, HDR passthru, Send HDR metadata ticked and Win10 API ticked (also tried Nvidia)(Check). AMD RX480 with latest drivers set to 4:2:2 YCbCr 10bit or 12bit (Check). Using MPC-BE with LAV filters DirectX Copyback (Also tried DirectX Native and none). Iimage is washed out as always. Only Win10 Film and TV player plays it correctly with HDR 'POP'. I don't know what else to try.

5th May 2017, 19:29	#43613 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,926	you are not wrong here. another place is this one: http://bugs.madshi.net/view_all_bug_...d=4&dummy=bla/ reported HDR issues are a lot right now i'm pretty sure he is aware of the problem/reports. the win 10 api isn't tested so people should know it may not work. nothign wrong with reporting the windows version and test setup of cause.

5th May 2017, 23:26	#43619 \| Link
MariaX9 Registered User Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 27	Anyone knows if i choose "lets madVR decide" in downscaling algo does it use for example SSIM 1D 100 AR or SSIM 1D 100 AR linear light? and should i tick "scale in linear light" on the image downscaling page?

6th May 2017, 05:03	#43620 \| Link
bcec Registered User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 81	I am seeing choppy playback wit madvr for 4K HEVC content. For instance, for a movie with 23.976fps, my average and max rendering stats are staying under 30ms, but my decoder/upload/render queues are not filling, resulting in a very choppy playback and constant dropped frames. I have a 980TI coupled with an i7 and 16GB ram. Besides 4K HEVC problem, regular bluray 1080->2160 upscaling with NNEDI364 is running butter smooth on my ring. Any ideas/tips/tricks to get the queues fill?