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Old 13th January 2017, 16:15   #4621  |  Link
aymanalz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qtwigg View Post
ME's 3, 4, and 5 compared.

...

Not worth it. In all scenarios for best results/encoding times, continue use me star on. Thanks.
To second another person above's request, could you please try ME 2 (umh) and add the results to the comparison?
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Old 14th January 2017, 16:21   #4622  |  Link
aymanalz
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^^ To answer my own request, I did encodes using the same settings that @qtwigg did, and here are the results:

UMH:

Final size: 87.433 MB
Bitrate: 6419.42 kb/s
Avg QP:26.42
FPS: 2.36

STAR:

Final size: 87.491 MB
Bitrate: 6423.67 kb/s
Avg QP:26.42
FPS: 3.34

SEA:

Final size: 87.5992 MB
Bitrate: 6431.62 kb/s
Avg QP:26.41
FPS: 0.72

Did not do Full.

Is there a GUI tool that can measure SSIM for clips encoded with 10 bit x265? I'd like to add that info as well. Visually, I can't tell the difference between any of the above.
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Old 16th January 2017, 06:26   #4623  |  Link
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looks like star is still the best way to go.
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Old 18th January 2017, 07:13   #4624  |  Link
Motenai Yoda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aymanalz View Post
Is there a GUI tool that can measure SSIM for clips encoded with 10 bit x265? I'd like to add that info as well. Visually, I can't tell the difference between any of the above.
--ssim --psnr to x265 command line
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Old 18th January 2017, 14:24   #4625  |  Link
ChaosKing
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I get some kind of strange banding with the latest x265 version.
input/output is 10bit. It is a high motion scene and the difference in bitrate/filesize is about 16% (the x265 encode is smaller)
But this "banding" appears also (less visible) in static scenes where is no movement.

Is there something to reduce the "banding"?

Code:
x265 2.2+22-20217c8af8ac:[Windows][GCC 6.3.0][64 bit] 10bit
--crf 18 --no-strong-intra-smoothing --rd 6 --rd-refine --psy-rd 2.6 --aq-motion --me star --psy-rdoq 2 --opt-cu-delta-qp --tu-inter-depth 4 --tu-intra-depth 4  --preset veryslow --output-depth 10 --deblock -3:-3 --qpstep 6 --min-keyint 1  --ref 6 --bframes 12 --subme 5 --limit-refs 3 --aq-mode 3 --aq-strength 0.8 --ctu 64 --min-cu-size 8 --rect --amp
http://i.imgur.com/gL8hyOV.png






It's also visible with --medium, but also very blurry compared to the x264 version on the left.

Code:
--crf 18  --preset medium --output-depth 10 --input-depth 10
http://i.imgur.com/HkxjvjX.png
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Old 18th January 2017, 14:43   #4626  |  Link
LigH
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These images are huge. Please try to link them via thumbnails, or URLs only...

If this issue appears suddenly, from a specific version on, it may be a regression or a newly introduced bug to be investigated.

But your command line is a bit nonsensical. First of all, if you start with simple parameters, and then use a preset meta-parameter in the middle, this will probably override several previous simple parameters with preset defaults. Furthermore, why so many, do you need a preset at all if you define more or less every single option? And their relation to each other and the video content ... you mostly disable smoothing to retain details for anime content?! That's paradox.

In this case, your nickname is quite matching ...
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Old 18th January 2017, 15:02   #4627  |  Link
ChaosKing
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Yes some are redundant bcs I started without the preset parameter.
I'm still testing out different parameters.
Not all animes look like cartoons and x265 tends to smooth the image/details.

I will test out an older version and report back.
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Old 18th January 2017, 16:46   #4628  |  Link
sneaker_ger
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I have seen this kind of banding happen for a long time. Sometimes it looks like an oil painting. Don't know any solution, unfortunately.
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Old 18th January 2017, 18:30   #4629  |  Link
Leo 69
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@ChaosKing --can you give me a link to the source via PM or provide a link to a problematic sequence? I'd like to test it with my settings, since I don't see much added banding in my own encodes even at higher CRF.

Last edited by Leo 69; 18th January 2017 at 18:32.
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Old 19th January 2017, 01:10   #4630  |  Link
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I tested with some older build 2.2+7 & 2.1+74, but I can see banding artefacts here too. I used just the --preset veryslow paramter (10bit) & then slightly increased rsy-rd and rdoq.
It seems that the higher rd-psy/rdoq is set, the sharper the image looks and the more banding is visible. (But it was just a quick test, will make furher tests with different scenes)

@Leo 69 I've send you a pm.
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Old 19th January 2017, 08:12   #4631  |  Link
LigH
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Sounds rather credible to me... psychovisual RD enhancements were described as taking energy from some areas with higher energy (edges and other details) and distributing it to the surrounding areas with lower energy (little detail). For cartoons, this would probably mean to take the energy from the edges of black lines and distribute it into the flat color areas. So they get undesired stripes in the same direction as close black lines.

As useful as a feature may be for natural video content, as inadequate it may turn out for artifical content. There is never one perfect set of parameters for all video content.
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Old 19th January 2017, 09:01   #4632  |  Link
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Even worse, those worm-like colour bandings are encouraged by high psy values coz they are considered with "high visual complexity"
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Old 19th January 2017, 09:12   #4633  |  Link
LigH
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I believe that cartoons should prefer rather higher than lower deblocking parameters, and rather enabled smoothing. But that will have to be tested. There is no "animation tuning" yet. But I believe there have been proposals already...?
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Old 20th January 2017, 01:10   #4634  |  Link
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I did some more testing, but still have some banding in my encodes.

x264 bitrate ~6000 kb/s
Code:
--preset veryslow --crf 18 --psy-rd 0.7 --aq-mode 3
x265 bitrate ~5750 kb/s
Code:
--preset veryslow --crf 15 --psy-rd 0.5 --aq-mode 3
result:
http://i.imgur.com/AyO8lHu.png



I also tried ssim-rd, 5777kb/s
Code:
--preset veryslow --crf 15.5 --rd 6 --ssim-rd --aq-mode 3
http://i.imgur.com/D1bJDGb.png

with more contrast for whose with bad monitors
http://i.imgur.com/dH4c99b.png

@LigH From that I read in all the threads and forums -> use -1,-2 or -3 deblocking and higher psy values, so that the image will remain sharp similar to x264 encodes. (also for animes)
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Old 20th January 2017, 01:19   #4635  |  Link
froggy1
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ChaosKing,

I think you are obsessing at this point. These are barely visible. Do you watch your anime frame by frame or do you sit back and enjoy?
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Old 20th January 2017, 01:44   #4636  |  Link
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No I'm not obsessed. I just want to show which "problems" I found so maybe the devs can look into it and hopefully fix or improve it.
I just find it a bit strange what a bit higher psy/rdoq values causes visible worm/banding like artifacts. ok, perhaps the paramter is also just very sensitive, but I just think there is room for improvement.

Maybe it is not that much visible on your screen, but on my Dell U2515H (factory calibrated) I can clearly see them. Of course much less than in my first encode with higher psy settings.

The thing is I was so happy with the quality at first, because it looked very good and the image was not blurry at all, like in my previous encode (compared to x264). But after watching some minutes I saw weird looking edges and color gradients ...
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Old 20th January 2017, 09:21   #4637  |  Link
Leo 69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by froggy1 View Post
ChaosKing,

I think you are obsessing at this point. These are barely visible. Do you watch your anime frame by frame or do you sit back and enjoy?
HEVC has to be on par in visual quality with AVC, requiring less bitrate. That's, I assume, what development team is working on.

Your point is ridiculous.
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Old 20th January 2017, 11:39   #4638  |  Link
aymanalz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motenai Yoda View Post
--ssim --psnr to x265 command line
I added that, where can I see the result? The program "Hybrid"'s log file does not give that info.

Sorry if the question is noobish.
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Old 20th January 2017, 13:33   #4639  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosKing View Post
No I'm not obsessed. I just want to show which "problems" I found so maybe the devs can look into it and hopefully fix or improve it.
I just find it a bit strange what a bit higher psy/rdoq values causes visible worm/banding like artifacts. ok, perhaps the paramter is also just very sensitive, but I just think there is room for improvement.

Maybe it is not that much visible on your screen, but on my Dell U2515H (factory calibrated) I can clearly see them. Of course much less than in my first encode with higher psy settings.

The thing is I was so happy with the quality at first, because it looked very good and the image was not blurry at all, like in my previous encode (compared to x264). But after watching some minutes I saw weird looking edges and color gradients ...
Report the problem to the x265 bug tracker, then. x265 devs don't fully follow everything in here
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Old 20th January 2017, 20:39   #4640  |  Link
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Quote:
The program "Hybrid"'s log file does not give that info.
you could simply enable 'x265->Misc->Metrics->PSNR' and 'x265->Misc->Metrics->SSIM' (or add the options under 'x265->Misc->Custom command line addition') both work fine here, if it doesn't for you create a proper bug report inside the Hybrid thread,...
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