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Old 19th October 2020, 19:49   #2401  |  Link
NikosD
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Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
YouTube also has much lower quality expectations than premium content, so they can get away with consistently suboptimal encoding. One people are paying for a service or content, their expectations go way higher. The general expectation is to not have any distracting artifacts. When someone is paying extra to subscribe to or buy UHD or HDR content, expectations go even higher.

YouTube being free can cut a whole lot of corners. Pretty much all video game footage on YouTube has painful artifacts, for example.
Being a customer of Netflix's 4K/HDR most expensive and premium subscription for the last few years, I have never seen such disturbing and distracting artifacts from Netflix like this period of time.

Netflix provides 4K at very low bitrates using new techniques like shot based encodings which are the worst thing I have ever seen on my 4K TV despite what they say here:
https://netflixtechblog.com/optimize...g-47b516b10bbb

I mean YouTube is many times better in encoding quality than these new "optimized" techniques.

It's a nightmare and a legacy of Spring-Summer COVID bandwidth restrictions that they decided to fight using these failed new encodings in order to keep bandwidth low, especially in 4K content.

As you work in the industry, is it possible to shake briefly their heads in order to open their eyes and see the mess they have caused ?

I wonder when this nightmare of limited bandwidth will be over, hopefully before the unlimited COVID lockdowns.
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Old 20th October 2020, 18:37   #2402  |  Link
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Being a customer of Netflix's 4K/HDR most expensive and premium subscription for the last few years, I have never seen such disturbing and distracting artifacts from Netflix like this period of time.

Netflix provides 4K at very low bitrates using new techniques like shot based encodings which are the worst thing I have ever seen on my 4K TV despite what they say here:
https://netflixtechblog.com/optimize...g-47b516b10bbb

I mean YouTube is many times better in encoding quality than these new "optimized" techniques.
You need to watch some more YouTube. I see some pretty egregious stuff there. Although their 4K VP9 encodes seem to have improved in quality somewhat recently.

Quote:
It's a nightmare and a legacy of Spring-Summer COVID bandwidth restrictions that they decided to fight using these failed new encodings in order to keep bandwidth low, especially in 4K content.
The COVID spike lead to increased concern about bandwidth utilization across the streaming industry. IIRC, some European government(s) stated concern that streaming was going to use up all the bandwidth.

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As you work in the industry, is it possible to shake briefly their heads in order to open their eyes and see the mess they have caused ?
I actually helped design the original Silverlight + VC-1 adaptive streaming encodes with Netflix that they originally launched. But I don't know that they'll take my opinion more seriously than customers' (or VMAF's) at this point.

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I wonder when this nightmare of limited bandwidth will be over, hopefully before the unlimited COVID lockdowns.
My unlimited bandwidth from Comcast ended a few months ago. I don't know that we'll ever stop worrying about bandwidth. People still want to watch HDR on tablets in subways .

The current codec wars are a challenge, as many aren't adopting HEVC (which is broadly available outside of Chrome/Firefox) in favor of using H.264 now and hoping for AV1. HEVC can lower bandwidth by around 40% versus H.264 at similar quality with today's encoders. HEVC would be the best way to drop aggregate bandwidth/increase top bitrate quality in 2020-2021 while people wait for HW AV1 decoders to become common.
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Old 20th October 2020, 18:40   #2403  |  Link
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I note that the RDNA 2 GPU that the Xbox Series S/X and the PlayStation 5 have customized versions of include AV1 HW decoders. Those might be the first high-volume AV1 HW decoder devices to the market. Game consoles get used a lot for premium content streaming.
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Old 20th October 2020, 19:40   #2404  |  Link
NikosD
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The current codec wars are a challenge, as many aren't adopting HEVC (which is broadly available outside of Chrome/Firefox) in favor of using H.264 now and hoping for AV1. HEVC can lower bandwidth by around 40% versus H.264 at similar quality with today's encoders. HEVC would be the best way to drop aggregate bandwidth/increase top bitrate quality in 2020-2021 while people wait for HW AV1 decoders to become common.
Talking about Netflix, it uses HEVC 10bit for 4K/HDR streams with highest HW DRM possible and the system doesn't offer any other codec for such content .

So, Netflix is already on the boat of HEVC 10bit since the beginning of 4K in 2014.

The artifacts I'm talking about have nothing to do with low bandwidth or codec of 4K content, but with the change in encoding type as Netflix mentioned in its article.

As I said before, the problem is not low bandwidth by itself but the way Netflix is trying to handle it using the "optimized" techniques of 4K re-encoding during the last few months.
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Old 20th October 2020, 20:11   #2405  |  Link
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Where did you see that the PS5 / XBS have hardware AV1 decoding? I wasn't aware of this!
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Old 20th October 2020, 20:16   #2406  |  Link
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@benwaggoner please. I'd love to know that myself.

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Old 21st October 2020, 04:25   #2407  |  Link
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Are there any AOM developers here? It's like talking to a wall...
AOM developer here. There is also a healthy community of AV1 developers, users and codec enthusiasts on IRC. I recommend #daala and #dav1d on irc.freenode.org if you still have questions.

Unfortunately, I don't recognize many of the names on doom9 from the AV1 process, but please speak up if I'm mistaken.
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Old 21st October 2020, 19:19   #2408  |  Link
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Where did you see that the PS5 / XBS have hardware AV1 decoding? I wasn't aware of this!
They use a customized RDNA 2 GPU, which has been announced as having AV1 decode support.

I suppose it's possible one or both cut AV1 as a cost savings measure, but I can't imagine it's a material addition to a GPU of that complexity. It's more in the mobile SoC space where transistors and power are a such a high premium that adding AV1 could be a material cost hit.

I guess I better get on a preorder for both and try them out.
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Old 21st October 2020, 19:27   #2409  |  Link
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AOM developer here. There is also a healthy community of AV1 developers, users and codec enthusiasts on IRC. I recommend #daala and #dav1d on irc.freenode.org if you still have questions.

Unfortunately, I don't recognize many of the names on doom9 from the AV1 process, but please speak up if I'm mistaken.
Doom9 is more user than developer centric, so that's not surprising.

Cross-pollination between the communities is always a really good idea. Any decent encoder development needs a lot of experienced eyes for subjective quality evaluation and tuning. There's been a historical bias towards objective metric tuning in the VPx and then AV1 development (PSNR first, now VMAF) which misses lots of psychovisual tuning opportunities. And VMAF is just not a sufficiently sensitive instrument to compare different adaptive quantization approaches.

That's more an issue with the training set used for VMAF's machine learning, which was limited to x264 without much variation in AQ modes or strengths. Especially because AV1 itself and libaom were both tuned using VMAF, we'd really need a new set of subjective ratings of real-world AV1 encodes using a variety of different psychovisual tunings. That ground truth data would then make for a much better-trained VMAF for AV1 evaluation.

As it is, the VMAF tuning baked in during AV1 and libaom development results in AV1 yielding VMAF scores that overestimate its subjective quality ratings versus, say x265 HEVC. That bias will go away if VMAF is retrained on subjective ratings of actual AV1 output.
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Old 21st October 2020, 21:43   #2410  |  Link
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https://forums.anandtech.com/threads...#post-40323361

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According to the latest version of the Windows driver, DG2 supports AV1 encoding.

.?AVEncodeAv1VdencPipelineAdapterG12@@
.?AVEncodeAv1VdencPipelineAdapterG12Dg2@@
.?AV?$_Ref_count_obj2@VAv1VdencPipelineG12Dg2@encode@@@std@@
.?AV?$_Ref_count_obj2@VAv1VdencPipelineG12@encode@@@std@@
.?AVAv1VdencPipelineG12@encode@@
.?AVAv1VdencPipelineG12Dg2@encode@@
.?AVAv1VdencPktG12@encode@@
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Old 22nd October 2020, 19:30   #2411  |  Link
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That's the 2nd gen of Intel's discreet GPUs for 2021-2022 launch?
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Old 22nd October 2020, 20:01   #2412  |  Link
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That's the 2nd gen of Intel's discreet GPUs for 2021-2022 launch?
First, not second. Speculation leans towards mid-2021, but that just seems to be people spitballing a Computex launch.

(DG2 = Xe-HPG/high-power Gen12 discrete; DG1 = Xe-LP/low-power Gen12 discrete)
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Old 23rd October 2020, 08:35   #2413  |  Link
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That's the 2nd gen of Intel's discreet GPUs for 2021-2022 launch?
https://www.anandtech.com/show/16190...g2-gpu-in-labs
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Old 24th October 2020, 08:45   #2414  |  Link
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Paint.NET now has full read/write .avif capability: https://blog.getpaint.net/2020/10/23...now-available/
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Old Yesterday, 11:38   #2415  |  Link
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For the owners of Ampere cards (haha it was a joke) there is a new version of NVEnc excellent transcoder by rigaya (the developer) who added AV1 HW decode in his app.

Obviously, you can't use the app for playback but only to transcode in HW even an AV1 clip.

Give it a try, you two unique owners of Ampere cards:

https://github.com/rigaya/NVEnc/issues/273
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