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Old 5th April 2009, 20:35   #61  |  Link
Esurnir
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A recent survey of those without broadband suggested that 2/3rd of people who don't have it simply don't want it, and say there's nothing that would get them to change their minds.

Now, obviously that'll change over time as IP becomes how all data is delivered.

But until then, those peope aren't going to be watching web video anyway, so they're not really part of the audience.

But being able to send 2 Mbps to 63% of the population is pretty huge! And 25% can do a 5 Mbps stream. And these numbers are going up quickly.

I think 1080p web video is going to be realistic for a decent chunk of the population by the end of 2010.
Save one detail, web delivery is viewed by PCs, not living room tv, the evolution of net speed is not matched with the evolution of computer screen size.

I currently have a 1366x768 screen on this laptop, last time I saw the number the average is around 1280x1024 or even 1024x768. Do we -really- need 1080p content on the web when most users don't have a screen larger than a 1280x720 video ?
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Old 5th April 2009, 23:03   #62  |  Link
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Save one detail, web delivery is viewed by PCs, not living room tv, the evolution of net speed is not matched with the evolution of computer screen size.

I currently have a 1366x768 screen on this laptop, last time I saw the number the average is around 1280x1024 or even 1024x768. Do we -really- need 1080p content on the web when most users don't have a screen larger than a 1280x720 video ?
if people can watch their favourite TV show via streaming in HD
they'll invest in that 250$ HD monitor
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interlacing and telecining should have been but a memory long ago.. unfortunately still just another bizarre weapon in the industries war on image quality.
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Old 6th April 2009, 00:18   #63  |  Link
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Save one detail, web delivery is viewed by PCs, not living room tv, the evolution of net speed is not matched with the evolution of computer screen size.
That distinction is already going away. Plenty of people hook up PC or PC-like devices to their big screens. And we've already announced Silverlight for phones (Windows Mobile and Symbian). Architecturally, a set-top-box is a lot like a phone with a really big screen. There's nothing about Silverlight or Smooth Streaming that couldn't fit in a STB or even an integrated processor in a TV in a a few years.

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I currently have a 1366x768 screen on this laptop, last time I saw the number the average is around 1280x1024 or even 1024x768. Do we -really- need 1080p content on the web when most users don't have a screen larger than a 1280x720 video ?
Lots of people won't be able to take advantage of it, sure. One thing we're doing with Smooth Streaming is checking on screen size and browser window size so that we don't send people video much larger than they can use.

But we could provide it for those who could take advantage of it.
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Old 6th April 2009, 14:59   #64  |  Link
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But being able to send 2 Mbps to 63% of the population is pretty huge! And 25% can do a 5 Mbps stream. And these numbers are going up quickly.

I think 1080p web video is going to be realistic for a decent chunk of the population by the end of 2010.
I'm surprised netflix and amazon aren't offering 1080p streams for consumer electronics already. But this willl have to fight against ISP's growing interest in bandwidth caps.
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Old 6th April 2009, 18:03   #65  |  Link
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I'm surprised netflix and amazon aren't offering 1080p streams for consumer electronics already. But this willl have to fight against ISP's growing interest in bandwidth caps.
1080p is also a lot to decode on lower-end machines.

As for bandwidth caps, I'm hoping the proxy cachability of Smooth Streaming will reduce the pain of streaming for ISPs. Since it's just a bunch of files via http, they can get away with web QoS. And lots of people watching the same thing is only the bandwidth of a single person watching it from the ISP perspective.

and speaking of Smooth Streaming, we've got a new demo page up which is a little more technical than SmoothHD.com:

http://www.iis.net/media/experiencesmoothstreaming
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Old 6th April 2009, 19:40   #66  |  Link
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Nice interface and it's fast and really light on the CPU not like Flash Players if you work multimedia wise with a lot of tabs and flash processes you really begin to hate Flash and love Silverlight
Flash Video Playback can be disturbed by so many things it's unbelievable how unreliable it currently is in heavy usage scenarios Silverlight always wins (no stuttering if more instances are running) it seems todo it's prioritizing much cleaner . All that that moved to flash streaming will sooner or later realize they should have better waited
I really see Silverlight as one of Microsofts best developed technologies currently and im amazed how clean it was designed and done

Silverlight + SVC will be the future , you can also see in this presentation that the reaction time of the chunked encoding here is to slow visually it needs to be faster i guess the clip here has it's Keyframes far away of each other it takes around 29 seconds to adapt ? Adaptibility needs to be going on the Decoder side completely not via the Encoder doing this workaround isn't really efficient @ all but it will make some happy
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Old 6th April 2009, 20:11   #67  |  Link
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Nice interface and it's fast and really light on the CPU not like Flash Players if you work multimedia wise with a lot of tabs and flash processes you really begin to hate Flash and love Silverlight
We're working really hard on improving performance. The final SL3 will be better yet than SL2.

And I just noticed that this player is actually doing a 2-pixel scale, so it's not getting our Fast Path; so it should be even faster in a few days .

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Flash Video Playback can be disturbed by so many things it's unbelievable how unreliable it currently is in heavy usage scenarios Silverlight always wins (no stuttering if more instances are running) it seems todo it's prioritizing much cleaner . All that that moved to flash streaming will sooner or later realize they should have better waited
I really see Silverlight as one of Microsofts best developed technologies currently and im amazed how clean it was designed and done
Thanks! We're doing a lot of work on the media pipeline and decoders to keep framerate high and not waste cycles. GPU compositing in SL3 will help reduce CPU load even further, particuarly for full-screen playback.
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Old 8th April 2009, 13:41   #68  |  Link
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just curious about silverlight licensing costs, lets say a website with 1m views per day of a certain video, would it be cheaper for them to go with silverlight or flash? I presume you are undercutting adobe in terms of pricing, would be a bit crazy if you charged more, especially as alot of people wouldnt be able to view the videos as they'd have to download silverlight.

do you have an approximate eta for silverlight3 e.g Q2 2009?

Will silverlight 2.0/3.0 be installed on windows 7 by default? Hope it is, would help you push websites to using silverlight compared to flash as less people would need to download it. Will you be getting OEM manufacturers to install silverlight by default eg Dell, HP etc as i'm fairly sure some OEM's may have flash installed by default. If it is installed by default on windows7 i presume there is an option to uninstall it, dont want you guys to get in trouble with the EU again.

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Old 10th April 2009, 04:22   #69  |  Link
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just curious about silverlight licensing costs, lets say a website with 1m views per day of a certain video, would it be cheaper for them to go with silverlight or flash? I presume you are undercutting adobe in terms of pricing, would be a bit crazy if you charged more, especially as alot of people wouldnt be able to view the videos as they'd have to download silverlight.
Both Silverlight and Flash are free and include necessary decoder licenses. So it's more about TCO cost differences than deployment costs. And that's where we have a huge advantage for media delivery. Smooth Streaming is a free ad-in for IIS, and so available for <$400 versions of Windows Sever 2008. Flash Media Server costs quite a big multiple of that.

Also, due to proxy caching and pre-encryption, you likely would need many fewer IIS servers than Flash servers for the same audience size.

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do you have an approximate eta for silverlight3 e.g Q2 2009?
"Later this year" was what Scott Guthrie announced at MIX.

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Will silverlight 2.0/3.0 be installed on windows 7 by default? Hope it is, would help you push websites to using silverlight compared to flash as less people would need to download it. Will you be getting OEM manufacturers to install silverlight by default eg Dell, HP etc as i'm fairly sure some OEM's may have flash installed by default. If it is installed by default on windows7 i presume there is an option to uninstall it, dont want you guys to get in trouble with the EU again.
Silverlight isn't part of Windows 7. Which is not to say that it won't come preinstalled on machines, but that'd be up to the OEMs (some of which have announced they'll be preinstalling Silverlight).
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Old 11th April 2009, 12:18   #70  |  Link
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1080p is also a lot to decode on lower-end machines.

As for bandwidth caps, I'm hoping the proxy cachability of Smooth Streaming will reduce the pain of streaming for ISPs. Since it's just a bunch of files via http, they can get away with web QoS. And lots of people watching the same thing is only the bandwidth of a single person watching it from the ISP perspective.

and speaking of Smooth Streaming, we've got a new demo page up which is a little more technical than SmoothHD.com:

http://www.iis.net/media/experiencesmoothstreaming
Awesome video displaying where SL is going. A question if u dont mind Ben
1. When i slide the constrained bandwith meter up and down it takes around 10sec until one see a difference. Now i can understand that on the way down, since the decode prolly has a big buffer to eat of, but on the way up, why does it take it in 1 by 1 steps? and not from minimum to maximum (i slid the bar from 400kbit to 2,4mbit). Why doesnt the client try the best bandwith ? Could u please elaborate a little bit more on how this "detection" work? I can see on trickplay skipping that the client sometimes trottles up bw 1 step by 1, and the next time i skip it can go from minimum to max..

best regards TEB

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Old 11th April 2009, 17:27   #71  |  Link
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Ben btw what is your team doing in terms of multimedia thread prioritization inside the web browser most still do a bad job here i mean just open some tabs with Flash advertising and the Silverlight Showcase or a Flash Video and it will happen fast that one of these applications is gonna suffer i guess you could tell the customer to just have 1 tab with the application open and try to avoid any other stuff but that's not very practical i hope browsers multimedia performance gets enhanced in the future currently it seems to play only a secondary role (a more stable multimedia experience inside the browser). There should be some stuff being done like giving a tab higher priority when it is in focus and a Video is playing inside of it so basically suspending the other instances in the other tabs for that time hope such similar stuff is soon finding it's way into browser. I already did some Browser tests in those regards and it's interesting to see the results between the most known ones and how different they all handle this but all lack in this some way or another i gonna take IE8 into my Benchmark of this next . In my heaviest test i open around 200 tabs and a Flash Player instance with the others having all kind of Flash Content loaded it's interesting to see how that makes Video Playback virtual impossible without continues brake ups im wondering how Silverlight 3 will do in this Scenario ?
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Old 11th April 2009, 22:51   #72  |  Link
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Ben btw what is your team doing in terms of multimedia thread prioritization inside the web browser most still do a bad job here i mean just open some tabs with Flash advertising and the Silverlight Showcase or a Flash Video and it will happen fast that one of these applications is gonna suffer i guess you could tell the customer to just have 1 tab with the application open and try to avoid any other stuff but that's not very practical i hope browsers multimedia performance gets enhanced in the future currently it seems to play only a secondary role (a more stable multimedia experience inside the browser).
Well, WPF and hence Silverlight were designed to gracefully scale with the system they're running on and the resources they have available. One big difference between XAML and Flash is that XAML is inherantly time-based, not frame-based. So animations just go at the speed they can in Silverlight, quite a bit more smoothly. And you don't have to worry about having all the elements in a player being the same frame rate.

When we were working on the Olympics, we saw a huge CPU spike in some players which we jumped in to debug. It turns out that it was a Flash banner add on the page that was eating up 4x the CPU power as the Silverlight media player.

Quote:
There should be some stuff being done like giving a tab higher priority when it is in focus and a Video is playing inside of it so basically suspending the other instances in the other tabs for that time hope such similar stuff is soon finding it's way into browser. I already did some Browser tests in those regards and it's interesting to see the results between the most known ones and how different they all handle this but all lack in this some way or another i gonna take IE8 into my Benchmark of this next . In my heaviest test i open around 200 tabs and a Flash Player instance with the others having all kind of Flash Content loaded it's interesting to see how that makes Video Playback virtual impossible without continues brake ups im wondering how Silverlight 3 will do in this Scenario ?
I don't know that we've tested 200 players at once . But in Smooth Streaming, we adapt bitrate based on both CPU power (reducing data rate when dropped frames gets too high) and frame size (no reason to require HD decode when the browser window is shrunk down). I'm not sure what we're currently doing based on focus, but that'd be an obvious other place to take some advantage.
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Old 11th April 2009, 22:57   #73  |  Link
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Awesome video displaying where SL is going. A question if u dont mind Ben
1. When i slide the constrained bandwith meter up and down it takes around 10sec until one see a difference. Now i can understand that on the way down, since the decode prolly has a big buffer to eat of, but on the way up, why does it take it in 1 by 1 steps? and not from minimum to maximum (i slid the bar from 400kbit to 2,4mbit). Why doesnt the client try the best bandwith? Could u please elaborate a little bit more on how this "detection" work? I can see on trickplay skipping that the client sometimes trottles up bw 1 step by 1, and the next time i skip it can go from minimum to max..
There's a whole lot of heurstics under there. And the slider isn't acting as an override to the heuristcs, but as input for the estimated bitrate; other logic is still taking place. Sometimes it'll just 5 bitrates, sometimes one, depending on how fast chunks are taking to download, how many chunks are in the buffer, etcetera.

Also, I think that version tries to buffer ahead up to 20 seconds of video, so even if you crank the bitrate way down, it might not respond immediately; it'll start requesting future chunks at the lower bitrate, but if it's already cached a higher quality version of a given chunk, it'll use that one.

The good news is that the heristics are all in managed code and delivered on-demand when media playback is about to start, so it can be tuned as often as desired, and be made as specific to a particular content site and its customers as desired. So expect rapid evolution and improvement of the client. It's not like Windows Media Player where we only had one chance to lock in stream-switching logic every couple of years.
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Old 13th April 2009, 14:09   #74  |  Link
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Silverlight isn't part of Windows 7. Which is not to say that it won't come preinstalled on machines, but that'd be up to the OEMs (some of which have announced they'll be preinstalling Silverlight).
Its a shame its not in windows7 by default, it would really help in websites deciding to use silverlight as they wouldnt need to download an installer to use their website. Like with .net framework, its great that its included in vista and windows7, now alot of software is made in .net but if they didnt include .net then the .net platform would have never taken off.

Lets hope steve ballmer decides to include silverlight in win7 with the option to uninstall it or even include it and during installation of windows7 you can choose to install it or not.
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Old 13th April 2009, 18:25   #75  |  Link
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There's a whole lot of heurstics under there. And the slider isn't acting as an override to the heuristcs, but as input for the estimated bitrate; other logic is still taking place. Sometimes it'll just 5 bitrates, sometimes one, depending on how fast chunks are taking to download, how many chunks are in the buffer, etcetera.

Also, I think that version tries to buffer ahead up to 20 seconds of video, so even if you crank the bitrate way down, it might not respond immediately; it'll start requesting future chunks at the lower bitrate, but if it's already cached a higher quality version of a given chunk, it'll use that one.

The good news is that the heristics are all in managed code and delivered on-demand when media playback is about to start, so it can be tuned as often as desired, and be made as specific to a particular content site and its customers as desired. So expect rapid evolution and improvement of the client. It's not like Windows Media Player where we only had one chance to lock in stream-switching logic every couple of years.
Hi. Dont get me wrong, cause i like the example with 5 different stream qualities.. But i just dont get how the player heuristics work when its allowed to use more bandwith (sliding the slider up to max).. Why it uses so long time to "understand" that its got "niagrafalls" to use
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Old 21st April 2009, 10:27   #76  |  Link
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and speaking of Smooth Streaming, we've got a new demo page up which is a little more technical than SmoothHD.com:

http://www.iis.net/media/experiencesmoothstreaming
Sweet demo!

Silverlight is indeed a promising technology in the AVC scene.
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Old 21st April 2009, 15:13   #77  |  Link
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And at NAB, we're also showing H.264 running at 720p24 on a Core 2 Duo inside Silverlight, with a pretty full featured (CABAC, pyramid B, lots of reference frames) 2.5 Mbps x264 encode. We've also got VC-1 working at 1080p24.

Some other news from the show:
http://on10.net/blogs/benwagg/NAB-Da...d-more/#Page=1
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Old 27th May 2009, 13:49   #78  |  Link
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For the Tennis fanboys, you can see Rolland Garros through your web browser within SL - Smooth Streaming @720p :



Looks great to me ...and you can record & replay live streamings too.
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Old 27th May 2009, 16:50   #79  |  Link
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looks cewl, but only for ze french...
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Old 11th June 2009, 03:59   #80  |  Link
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any news on Silverlight3 going GOLD yet? Have you not made a decision on when you will start making a 64bit version yet? You got a nice tasty 64bit IE8 begging for it and if you released it im sure firefox and chrome 64bit betas would be released, maybe even safari. Even apple are going all 64bit in Mac OSX 10.6 Snow Leapord, you could create a 64bit version that works with mac osx 10.6's safari 64bit too. There's obviously been 64bit ubuntu for quite some time and with netbooks being released alot 64bit silverlight would mean they could use minefield for alot more sites and use alot less of their very slow cpu's.

Im sure you could create a 64bit compatible version that wasnt optimised for 64bit so that people can use silverlight sites on 64bit browsers then later down the line you could optimise the code to take advantage of 64bit properly.

Show apple who's boss instead of being reactive. OSX 10.6 will likely take off big time especially with the $29 price tag.

anyway hope to hear some good news in response to my questions.

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