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Old 2nd November 2018, 14:23   #53541  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
Why not? Wouldn't UHDTV displays that conform to Rec.2020 expect the content to be in BT.2020 when the definition is 2160p SDR (Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._2...em_colorimetry), just like HD displays expected BT.709 when being fed > 576p? Maybe the Radeon is enforcing the standard really hard? (Edit: i.e. indicating BT.2020 in the HDMI metadata when it's outputting 2160p even though madVR is sending BT.709?)
Just like 8-bit HDR or even 8-bit UHD, maybe BT.709 UHD is technically accepted by some displays but not following the standard and therefore not tested/considered by manufacturers?
UHD TV that get an SDT UHD image usually stay in bt 709 mode and they should you don't know it it is rescaled or what ever.

for an HDR signal it should assume bt 2020 or even better the connection should say bt 2020 and this API is broken for AMD.

if amd is changing the HDMI color information based on bit deep and resolution alone than they are as dumb as they could be.
GPU are mostly created for gaming and there is at least 1 game that can be rendered in 10 bit SDR and nearly every d3d11 game could do the same way before HDR or bt2020 was a thing so they are SDR and most important windows doesn't change its color space based on bit deep and resolution so if in doubt use the same as windows.

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Originally Posted by SirSwede View Post
NGU Sharp would be too sharp for me, as I am using Sharpen Complex 2 in MPC-HC.

Would the GTX 1050 Ti, 4GB GDDR5 be able to handle something like: NGU AA, RCA and SC2 for upscaling 720p to 4K?
than don't use sharpen complex.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 14:25   #53542  |  Link
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Originally Posted by mytbyte View Post
Hmmm....the other day, when I connected my very old comp with ATI HD6570 to plasma, it reported xv.color color signal which is kind of like old wide gamut "standard" and I don't know how this happens, I never activated it if I can recall correctly...I haven't looked closer into this, and can't tell if I get wider gamut and more saturated colors because i didn't have time to look into how to deactivate this...I could connect it to my UHD over the weekend, but perhaps this could be a clue for you -> perhaps BT.2020 is signalled to TV without you knowing about it (like a sort of AMD-specific user friendliness)and TV switches to it's wide gamut mode (probably native colorspace)
yes that is definitely a possibility, no ides how we'd track this down though,it would still be circumstantial, we really need MADSHIs input there but I think he's busy right now.

One other thing fixes this that I mentioned a while back but I didnt really look into my settings to hard to this might be a false positive, if I put my TV in PC mode this fixes it, could be something to do with that as well, perhaps the TV knows its a PC as is adjuting accordingly but as I have it in Bluray mode is showing the wrong colour space / saturation. There could be a difference between how a PC outputs 10 bit and how a bluray player does.

its all very complicated, just glad i have a workaround for now
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Old 2nd November 2018, 20:58   #53543  |  Link
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(1) - sorry if this is a stupid question, (2) sorry if i've asked this before but why is there no profile group allowed for rendering, if this was possible it could solve a few issues, being able to turn DIRECT3D11 off for SDR material would be useful, perhaps being able to turn off FSE per media type might also be useful?
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Old 2nd November 2018, 21:46   #53544  |  Link
huhn
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but you can do that with profiles.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 21:48   #53545  |  Link
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oh feck so you can, sorry.

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Old 2nd November 2018, 21:52   #53546  |  Link
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would it be true to say that the DIRECT3D11 option is only required for HDR 10bit playback and doesnt need to be on for any 8 bit SDR playback at all then?
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Old 2nd November 2018, 23:16   #53547  |  Link
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nvidia can do HDR without it so yeah you only really need it for amd HDR.
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Old 3rd November 2018, 14:57   #53548  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTechi View Post
What gamma are you using for HDR content? I tested so far a 3D LUT DCI-P3 with power gamma 2.2-2.4 with nice results. Now I tried a 3D LUT with madvr set to output in HDR format and ST2048 and JVC also on ST2048 and Guardians of the Galaxy looked fantastic. But when I looked at Iron Man 1 it was not watchable with it. Might be caused by just recalculating the 3D LUt instead of creating a new one with the JVC on ST2048 and HDR profile.

I was thinking I should go for:
1. A 3DLUT for 709 content with a gamma 2.2 or a bit higher using JVC 2020 profile since the calibration was made in DCI-P3
2. A 3DLUT for DCI-P3/BT2020 with gamma ST2048 using JVC HDR profile (which it would switch to automattically on my 7900)

Does this makes sense?

NoTechi
1. A 3D LUT for BT.709 content is still considered the reference.
2. A 3D LUT is used to tone map in PQ using the projector's HDR mode. You would lose HDR -> SDR pixel shader, which I know you like. The 3D LUT could do a fine job, but it is a fixed curve for all videos and not dynamic like pixel shader. A 3D LUT for HDR content is not yet the reference, so choose the option with the best image quality. You could also try multiple 3D LUTs for different video peaks.
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Old 3rd November 2018, 15:30   #53549  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
I created some instructions for those who are using current test builds wanting to try madMeasureHDR. Those at AVSForums are already well-versed on the current methods.

Instructions: Using madMeasureHDR to create dynamic HDR10 metadata

This is the only place this information is published and I'll update it as the tool changes.
Sorry if this question is stupid but...

These measurements are used to do something similar to what Dolby Vision/HDR10+ do with regular HDR10 material? So madVR can make full use of a panel highlights capabilities on a scene by scene basis?
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Old 3rd November 2018, 15:45   #53550  |  Link
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It reduces the compression applied by the tone mapping curve when possible by setting the curve for each scene. If you measure a file before playing it, it is possible to pick out scenes and the measurement tool will flag the brightness of the scene. Then the tone curve is set for each scene in the video. This has the most impact slightly above the set target nits.

Tone mapping goes under the PQ curve, which makes the image darker, and dynamic tone mapping attempts to dynamically reduce compression when possible.
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Old 3rd November 2018, 15:59   #53551  |  Link
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It reduces the compression applied by the tone mapping curve when possible by setting the curve for each scene. If you measure a file before playing it, it is possible to pick out scenes and the measurement tool will flag the brightness of the scene. Then the tone curve is set for each scene in the video. This has the most impact slightly above the set target nits.

Tone mapping goes under the PQ curve, which makes the image darker, and dynamic tone mapping attempts to dynamically reduce compression when possible.
Ok. And thanks.

But isn't this what Dolby Vision and HDR10+ are supposed to do?
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Old 3rd November 2018, 16:02   #53552  |  Link
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Yes, but they don't exist yet in the form used by most here. It is limited to HDR10. By first decoding the video or using real-time brightness histograms, you can mostly replace the need for HDR10+ or Dolby Vision content by creating the missing metadata.
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Old 3rd November 2018, 16:32   #53553  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Yes, but they don't exist yet in the form used by most here. It is limited to HDR10. By first decoding the video or using real-time brightness histograms, you can mostly replace the need for HDR10+ or Dolby Vision content by creating the missing metadata.
Yes. Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I think this is a great achievement. Even more so considering that not all TVs support Dolby Vision (even from major producers).
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Old 3rd November 2018, 17:07   #53554  |  Link
huhn
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measuring peak brightness is done by every local dimming TV well obviously because that's how you know how to dim the back light.

in theory this gives you HDR10+ (except for better encoding i still don't known what the big deal about this is instead of just sending it as HDR10 and let the TV measure it) and madVR could repack it like that.
but i really have a feeling madVR is using this to do a better job at tone mapping. so no the core reason to use HDR10+ is not given with this.

DV is a different beast on BD it adds extra high lights which are completely missing with out it and it has a higher insane peak nit that can't be put into HDR+.
and it's to me very obvious that it is very useful for HDR -> SDR conversation.

@NoTechi

an SDR 3D lut is used for HDR-SDR conversion and to get the best possible result there a gamma of 2.2 is needed.
because it really looks like madVR is mapping the PQ to 2.2 so to get the same brightness the PQ would have and to get the gamma processing kind of working.
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Old 4th November 2018, 01:14   #53555  |  Link
Megalith
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What kind of numbers are RTX 2080 Ti owners seeing with the most intensive settings (e.g., NGU Very High) enabled for 4K content?
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Old 4th November 2018, 09:23   #53556  |  Link
Ampallang
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Try these:

4K UHD:
  • Chroma: NGU Anti-Alias (medium)
  • Downscaling: SSIM 1D 100% + LL + AR
  • Image upscaling: Jinc + AR
  • Image doubling: Off
  • Upscaling refinement: Off
  • Artifact removal - Debanding: Off
  • Artifact removal - Deringing: Off
  • Artifact removal - Deblocking: Off
  • Artifact removal - Denoising: Off
  • Image enhancements: Off
  • Dithering: Error Diffusion 2

1080p:
  • Chroma: NGU Anti-Alias (low)
  • Downscaling: SSIM 1D 100% + LL + AR
  • Image upscaling: Off
  • Image doubling: NGU Sharp
  • <-- Luma doubling: high
  • <-- Luma quadrupling: let madVR decide (direct quadruple - NGU Sharp (high))
  • <-- Chroma: let madVR decide (Bicubic60 + AR)
  • <-- Doubling: let madVR decide (scaling factor 1.2x (or bigger))
  • <-- Quadrupling: let madVR decide (scaling factor 2.4x (or bigger))
  • <-- Upscaling algo: let madVR decide (Bicubic60 + AR)
  • <-- Downscaling algo: let madVR decide (Bicubic150 + LL + AR)
  • Upscaling refinement: Off
  • Artifact removal - Debanding: medium/medium
  • Artifact removal - Deringing: Off
  • Artifact removal - Deblocking: Off
  • Artifact removal - Denoising: Off
  • Image enhancements: Off
  • Dithering: Error Diffusion 2

DVD:
  • Chroma: NGU Anti-Alias (low)
  • Downscaling: SSIM 1D 100% + LL + AR
  • Image upscaling: Off
  • Image doubling: NGU Anti-Alias
  • <-- Luma doubling: high
  • <-- Luma quadrupling: let madVR decide (direct quadruple - NGU Anti-Alias (high))
  • <-- Chroma: let madVR decide (Bicubic60 + AR)
  • <-- Doubling: let madVR decide (scaling factor 1.2x (or bigger))
  • <-- Quadrupling: let madVR decide (scaling factor 2.4x (or bigger))
  • <-- Upscaling algo: let madVR decide (Bicubic60 + AR)
  • <-- Downscaling algo: let madVR decide (Bicubic150 + LL + AR)
  • Upscaling refinement: Off
  • Artifact removal - Debanding: medium/medium
  • Artifact removal - Deringing: Off
  • Artifact removal - Deblocking: Off
  • Artifact removal - Denoising: Off
  • Image enhancements: Off
  • Dithering: Error Diffusion 2

You may not agree with the use debanding with those profiles. If you want the image to be sharper, try adding some image enhancements/upscaling refinement.

There is more information in the link in my signature if you are interested. The choice of what to use is mostly up to you.
Hi Warner that works very well now I will try to set for the sources some fine tuning. But the pas far as I can see it looks as good and better than before and I have the feeling that it take less resources in hdr.

Short question for a gpu upgrade end of the year. In case that the 1080 will disappear without a price tag of 300 Euro. I will look into an amd rx580 or vega56/64 how much more quality I can get in comparison to above settings with my gtx 960. I think the 4:4:4 and 10bit will make a huge step in pq, because the gtx can only handle 4:2:2 8bit. Or didnt I get more power and visual pq improvements. I ask because I want to switch next year from 55 oled to 65 oled or 75+ qled / micro led. Source is always with madvr via PC.

Last edited by Ampallang; 4th November 2018 at 09:26.
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Old 4th November 2018, 09:33   #53557  |  Link
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@all who use a TV as device can you please clarify that the tonemapping of madvr make no sense other than with a projector. Because the TV has always the tonemapping active in hdr.
So only for sdr TVs who aren't able to display hdr itself it will be an improvement. Or is there any benefit that some users are doing tonemapping for there hdr WCG TVs via madvr?
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Old 4th November 2018, 10:03   #53558  |  Link
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@Ampallang madshi already answered this: basically, there are two possibilities:
- madVR might do better tone mapping than the TV if the TV's pretty bad, so using madVR tone mapping with SDR output and the TV at max brightness might give better results than the TV's own HDR mode
OR:
- if the TV has bad tone mapping but is not that dumb, you may be able to go around it by giving madVR the real max nits of your TV and still outputting in HDR, and then the TV will avoid doing a second tone mapping as the brightest pixels will be under its max brightness and it would be able to display 'as is'
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Old 4th November 2018, 10:35   #53559  |  Link
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Hi Warner that works very well now I will try to set for the sources some fine tuning. But the pas far as I can see it looks as good and better than before and I have the feeling that it take less resources in hdr.

Short question for a gpu upgrade end of the year. In case that the 1080 will disappear without a price tag of 300 Euro. I will look into an amd rx580 or vega56/64 how much more quality I can get in comparison to above settings with my gtx 960. I think the 4:4:4 and 10bit will make a huge step in pq, because the gtx can only handle 4:2:2 8bit. Or didnt I get more power and visual pq improvements. I ask because I want to switch next year from 55 oled to 65 oled or 75+ qled / micro led. Source is always with madvr via PC.
I have a GTX 960 + 65" oled and you'd be wasting your money.

It won't make any noticeable difference. A 960 is already more than capable with madVR.

4:4:4 and 10bit makes no difference. Video is mastered at 4:2:0 and 8 bit output with dithering is indistinguishable from 10 bit.
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Old 4th November 2018, 11:42   #53560  |  Link
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"960 can only handle 4:2:2 8bit" How did you even arrive at that? I ran 10 bit and 4:4:4 on my 960 no problem.

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I have a GTX 960 + 65" oled and you'd be wasting your money.
AHEM, madVR's tonemapping is kinda a big deal and he's sure as heck gonna want more than a 960 for that and other stuff. How the RX is gonna cope I have no idea though, someone can weigh in once the next version lands in maybe a week or two.
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