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Old 11th November 2020, 14:53   #1001  |  Link
quietvoid
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Probably would want to wait until the options get reduced down to a few good ones as people test.
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Old 11th November 2020, 15:15   #1002  |  Link
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Exectly, plus wait for a new build that doesn't crash and result in green screen
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Old 11th November 2020, 20:44   #1003  |  Link
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I don't need to wait for a new build. :P The answer is yes, settings WILL change based on the work done in this new build. Whether you decide to wait for some future build or not before you start playing with the settings is your choice, but, I've already started adjusting mine and will continue to work on it through the weekend.
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Old 11th November 2020, 21:45   #1004  |  Link
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Do any of you guys who have an LG CX, who have tried/liked SmoothMotion in madVR, tried using the BFI on these models. I have tried BFI to improve motion resolution on my C9 but it only has an off/on for BFI, no low/medium/high which I believe the CX has. Id be interested to hear if you find that improves motion for you and isn't too 'flickery'
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Old 14th November 2020, 01:22   #1005  |  Link
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I've been wondering about one thing lately: How come motion is always buttery smooth in PC mode, with proper cadence, when at the same time Real Cinema is permanently disabled? Meanwhile, in normal mode, motion has judder without RC. If you then enable RC, there is very noticeable video delay, which PC mode, of course, does not have. Just curious how PC mode manages to pull that off when all processing (that we know of) is turned off. We need an LG engineer on this board
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Old 14th November 2020, 01:29   #1006  |  Link
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It's funny cause the answer to your question is in what you posted. All that processing that's turned on in non-PC mode is exactly what's causing the judder in the first place.
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Old 14th November 2020, 01:33   #1007  |  Link
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Well, that's plausible, but it doesn't explain what PC mode does for proper cadence.
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Old 14th November 2020, 01:43   #1008  |  Link
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Turns crap off. I really do believe the processing causes just enough of a delay to cause the issue we see. I turn as much of it off as I can in non-PC mode and I get a MOSTLY judder free experience.
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Old 14th November 2020, 02:08   #1009  |  Link
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What do you mean about video delay? As we know RC is working the opposite way on Normal mode: if it's on then it doesn't touch the source with proper cadence, if it's off then it will do some crazy things
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Old 14th November 2020, 02:51   #1010  |  Link
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Perhaps this was improved upon in newer models, but when I enable RC on my C7, it will create a video delay of at least 120ms. I would then have to adjust the AVR accordingly, which is always a PITA. In PC mode, or with RC off in normal mode, there is no additional delay, and the lip sync can remain at zero across the board. Big plus IMO.
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Old 14th November 2020, 03:02   #1011  |  Link
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I have tried a number of months without interpolation on my LG C9, after many years of using SVP, I have to say I don't know how people can be happy to watch 24p on a modern/good OLED without some compensation for motion/judderyness. With BFI mode enabled on the C9 at least, its too flickery as it only has an off/on mode. The "on" mode is very flickery compared to the low mode on the C10 and newer. (I welcome C10 inputs on this discussion when set to low).

We all know OLED is "perfectly" juddery as the OLED is doing as its supposed to do in 24p mode and we can get attached to that as being the 'directors intent'. I'm all for that, but I highly doubt that exactness / judderyness is what the director intended (how will we ever know eh?).

I really like SVP and its varying ranges of smoothness it allows, to over come this. Now it allows a pure avisynth_filter based way of engaging it, without the need for ffdshow. I think the whole "soap opera affect" is really over emphasised. This SVP smoothness looks fantastic to me and all of my relatives, SVP being engaged in a medium smoothness mode. It shouldn't be shunned so badly as "soap opera affect" and dismissed so badly/quickly.

In a way its like saying upscaling is "soap opera affect" (i.e. this is not natural, of course it isn't natural and that's the point, its to get as close to what the director intended, and that's not always exactly what's in the content/blu-ray, he/she probably didn't intend us to see a juddery image of 24p on an OLED right, just like he/she didn't intend us upscaling the resolution in crazy/great ways that we can do with modern hardware??)

I really look forward to this forum discussion move past it being "soap opera affect" and move into looking at ways to make our resulting image moving towards the true directors intent, which we all know is not a juddery 24p which a lot of us are seeing on these super modern OLEDs.

I'm not sure what the end solution will be though SVP and some tweaks to its settings (everyone is welcome to share their settings), or madVR (down the road possibly).

Last edited by mark0077; 14th November 2020 at 03:36.
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Old 14th November 2020, 03:08   #1012  |  Link
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they clearly do even an OLED is slow compared to an CRT and they are not that "long" gone as mastering devices.
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Old 14th November 2020, 04:11   #1013  |  Link
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Next time you go to the movie theater (whenever that may be...), look for stutter in pans and fast action. It's there. That's the nature of 24fps, unfortunately, and since we're so used to it, anything else will look "unnatural".
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Old 14th November 2020, 05:08   #1014  |  Link
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Correct. It's why people freaked out with the Hobbit movies when Jackson filmed them at 48fps. Which i was personally elated about and loved it. But it made a lot of people REALLY uneasy.
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Old 14th November 2020, 18:58   #1015  |  Link
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@mark0077: Sorry I did not read all the thread. You're saying you use SVP on a LG Oled screen ?
Why don't you use the integrated motion interpolation from the TV ?

I also don't like the judder for 24fps content, but I use the one from my Samsung TV and I don't need SVP.
The advantage of using the one from Samsung, it uses its 120hz panel to convert the 24fps content, and you can adjust the fluidity to avoid soap opera effect.

I ask the question because it would be very disappointing if LG didn't have a motion interpolation good algorithm like the one from Samsung TV.
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Old 14th November 2020, 21:04   #1016  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pirlouy View Post
@mark0077: Sorry I did not read all the thread. You're saying you use SVP on a LG Oled screen ?
Why don't you use the integrated motion interpolation from the TV ?

I also don't like the judder for 24fps content, but I use the one from my Samsung TV and I don't need SVP.
The advantage of using the one from Samsung, it uses its 120hz panel to convert the 24fps content, and you can adjust the fluidity to avoid soap opera effect.

I ask the question because it would be very disappointing if LG didn't have a motion interpolation good algorithm like the one from Samsung TV.
In PC mode I don't think the TV's interpolation can be used. It disables all of those features to keep latency low I guess. I would assume the TV's interpolation couldn't beat what a pc could do, similar to upscaling I guess. But I have not compared them. Something to try though, thanks.
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Old 14th November 2020, 21:08   #1017  |  Link
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To judge the unwanted side effects of (LG and other's) motion interpolation thoroughly I can suggest simple test patterns.
One can just generate blinking patterns of dots, or fences crossmoving. Very enlightening.
Or use a Spears & Munsil BD/UHD disc (Stacey Spears being a member here).

With the advent of AI crossmoving parts may come out more convincing.

In the end it seems to depend what one's vision algos are trained for.
Prefer smooth motion and tolerate such faults vs. finding them too distracting.

I find myself trying LG's motion interpolation (OLED55E6V) on and off,
just to find that some scenes might just benefit while others are definitely damaged.

A valid attempt for treatment of 24p content on large screens might be:
Introduce the correct amount of motion blur to make too short shutter angles consumable.

Pixar have demonstrated that perfectly:
Their short snowman-in-a-globe episode ("Knick Knack") had been rendered in 24p, has plenty of rapid motion, particles and stuff.
If you freeze a frame of the snowflake whirl you become aware how much love has gone into designing that motion blur.
Being from 1989 it still worked perfectly for me in 2019, BD 23.976p on a standard speed Loewe Connect 32" (no HFR interpolation).
Big thanks, John Lasseter et al.

This means there is no imperative to interpolate faulty frames when the vision algo is able to do that work on correct motion blurs.
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Last edited by Emulgator; 15th November 2020 at 19:51.
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Old 17th November 2020, 20:27   #1018  |  Link
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To avoid cluttering the AVS thread more, what's the opinion here on the current saturation levels in high nit, HDR playback?
I've personally never noticed a difference for regular movies without desaturation, since the display is at DCI-P3.
Even demos, there aren't many scenes where desaturating makes a difference.

So all this testing for "correctness" seems very much focused at making low nit tonemapping desaturate much more than the HDR intent.
In my opinion, it feels like desaturating more for low nit projectors actually goes against the graded HDR master, which intends to display the color at the high brightness it should be.

Thoughts?
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Old 17th November 2020, 20:57   #1019  |  Link
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While it's probably more noticeable for those with lower nit levels, we are not immune to the issue they're working on fixing. I don't pretend to understand all the details behind it all, but even when you have 700-800 nits, if you have very high nit content you have to compress that to fit below our real display nits. So even though it may or may not be as apparent, we're still dealing with the issue because we are in effect changing the brightness by definition. And indeed, I have played with the desat options on some higher nit content and can see very clearly even though I'm outputting 700 nits in HDR that saturation is impacted. What concerns me about that is even when doing passthrough to our display, we don't necessarily know how the tone mapping algorithm they're using handles this. madshi seems to think they're using dumb desat across the board in most cases. Ultimately whether you think you're impacted or not, the question is valid....since you don't have a 10k nit display, how do you KNOW you have it right? And from the content I've looked at so far, this seems more than a theoretical discussion....even for us.
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Old 17th November 2020, 21:29   #1020  |  Link
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I've been using HDR pass-through since I first got my OLED, but I've always wondered how much of a difference there really is. My 960 is not powerful enough, so I'll have to wait a while longer. I don't watch a lot of HDR content, but when I do, it looks so good that I don't feel like I'm missing anything. The only thing I did back when was to calibrate the high 2-point, and I disabled DTM and lowered color from 55 to 50 (this is now default on the newer models).
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