madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[arrgh]

Originally Posted by arrgh

but : why does the studdering only happen if I actually activate D3D11; if I deactivate it than I still get 3D but without studdering?

yes, I did post freeze reports, but you came to the conclusion that madVR is mostly gone already and you can not pinpoint a reason, why MPC-BE should hang.

Software setup : intel grahics driver 15.45.21.4821; LAV *.83 (nightly; with D3D11 as HW decoder); madVR *.10; mpc-be *.3181



with this setup I have realized that 40-50% of my MVC-mkv do work smoothly, which is already a big success (here also the Player can be closed in a normal way);

but the second half shows mostly only a black screen; sometimes audio works, sometimes not; sometimes the player hangs after a short time (~30s); but always (whether it hangs or not) the player can only be closed via the Task-Manager;
since the working/not-working files are muxed over several years I would exclude a muxing problem...

here a statistics of such a file... the rendering times are extraordinary



@madshi: I will send you via pm a link to 2 small 1 min samples, one working, one not; maybe you can identify what the difference is...; I will also send this to @Nevcairel, since I'm not sure where the problem really is...

[Georgel]

@madshi - is there any way you can give us control over how the screenshots are saved? I'd really love for them to be saved as PNG files, and to have control over the type of JPG they are saved as.

[huhn]

that's up to the player mpc-hc can do png.

@arrgh the file doesn't get decoded in real time. i wonder if it get's decoded at all.

[huhn]

Originally Posted by x7007

It can't be memory errors . everything else works fine.

2 movies I tried The Dark Tower 2017 HDR and The Hitman Bodyguard 2017 HDR , both with dark scene had white dots the same exact place, there are no errors , there are no BSOD, this card works fine. what I am trying to find if it could be something else. what could it be if it's driver and not program , because it happens both Potplayer and MPC-HC with MadVR

a PC doesn't instantly crash if the Vram is corrupted it can work pretty much "fine".
i still haven seen a screen or if it is even shown on a screen shoot at all.

[Georgel]

So I'd love to have either PNG or level 12 JPG instead of what level is being used - that would really complete the thing I want to use it for.

How can one set what file type is saved, and at what level? Really need it now.

[huhn]

file -> save image (it not hidden or something) or alt+i.
the setting used there is used for f5 too.

[Moo]

Question about installing new versions. Can I just drop my old ‘settings’ file right into the newly installed folder structure? That’s how I’ve always done it. Is there a better/proper way?

[cork_OS]

Originally Posted by Moo

Question about installing new versions. Can I just drop my old ‘settings’ file right into the newly installed folder structure? That’s how I’ve always done it. Is there a better/proper way?

I always just overwrite old madVR files with new build.

[mclingo]

hi, could really do with a final answer on this if anyone knows for sure, is 3D MVC possible without FSE on AMD cards or not, I know it is on NVIDIA.

Any chance you could finally put this to bed MADSHI?

[Clammerz]

Originally Posted by mclingo

If like me you have mixture of 8 and 10 bit movies, 420 10 bit should be better than 444 8bit for a movies which are actually encoded in 10bit, there should be less colour banding and smoother graduations.

This is not true. While a 10bit file is generally good depending on the encoder, 10bit output to the display is a crapshoot. MadVR outputting 8bit with high quality dithering can outperform a TV's processing engine (or graphics card drivers which may downsample behind the scenes) which may display banding with 10bit output.

You then go on to say that personally for yourself you don't see a difference and that is fine. But you shouldn't say "should be better" without qualifying so as not to confuse users which may not know the details behind the scenes.

Regarding your 3D issue, perhaps you should post about it on the bugtracker for a detailed record of the problem.

[Georgel]

Originally Posted by huhn

file -> save image (it not hidden or something) or alt+i.
the setting used there is used for f5 too.

Thank you! This is lovely, I had no idea we could do this!

Originally Posted by Wolfberry

(Default settings in MPC-HC)
Like huhn said, Alt+I lets you set whatever file type you want.

Thank you!

[mclingo]

Originally Posted by Clammerz

This is not true. While a 10bit file is generally good depending on the encoder, 10bit output to the display is a crapshoot. MadVR outputting 8bit with high quality dithering can outperform a TV's processing engine (or graphics card drivers which may downsample behind the scenes) which may display banding with 10bit output.

You then go on to say that personally for yourself you don't see a difference and that is fine. But you shouldn't say "should be better" without qualifying so as not to confuse users which may not know the details behind the scenes.

Regarding your 3D issue, perhaps you should post about it on the bugtracker for a detailed record of the problem.

What you are essentially saying there is that people who think they are getting 10 bit might not be due to some background processing they might not be aware of and if this is the case then 8 bit + dithering will be better - well thats obvious isnt it.

Those with a true 10 bit panel and the ability to sent 10 bit to it will have the better picture though wont they as dithering is filling in data thats already there on 10 bit.


My 3D is working, I just have the well documented FES problems so I want to stop using it, I cant get 3d MVC to work without FES, I just want to know if i'm wasting my time trying to get it to work as it just doesnt work without FES.

[huhn]

what the difference between 10 bit and 8 bit? noise level
dithering is effecting the lowest bits the bit witch are already all over the place thanks to encoding and again are altered thanks to chroma scaling and YCbCr -> RGB conversation.
so now you go and do RGB dither it to 10 bit and makes the lowest bit more inaccurate give it the GPU that go and convert it to YCbCr down scale it to half the resolution 4:2:0 (yes it has half the resolution of RGB) and hopefully dither it yet again which again adds noise to the lowest bits.

but now the real fun guess what a display has to do to display an image. well it needs RGB guess what it is doing yet again...

RGB 8 bit shines most with TVs that properly support 4:4:4 and on these TVs chroma scaler have a bigger impact on the image.

RGB 8 bit can give you a more refined image while high bit deep can give you less dither noise with madVR and for not properly dithering renderer less banding.

[Manni]

Originally Posted by huhn

what the difference between 10 bit and 8 bit? noise level
dithering is effecting the lowest bits the bit witch are already all over the place thanks to encoding and again are altered thanks to chroma scaling and YCbCr -> RGB conversation.
so now you go and do RGB dither it to 10 bit and makes the lowest bit more inaccurate give it the GPU that go and convert it to YCbCr down scale it to half the resolution 4:2:0 (yes it has half the resolution of RGB) and hopefully dither it yet again which again adds noise to the lowest bits.

but now the real fun guess what a display has to do to display an image. well it needs RGB guess what it is doing yet again...

RGB 8 bit shines most with TVs that properly support 4:4:4 and on these TVs chroma scaler have a bigger impact on the image.

RGB 8 bit can give you a more refined image while high bit deep can give you less dither noise with madVR and for not properly dithering renderer less banding.

This might be true with SDR, not with HDR. ST2084 needs at least 10bits in order to not produce any banding, especially in dark/bright areas, although it's more important in the content than for rendering.

My display is 12bits from end to end (input to panels) and 10bits output produces a better result than 8bits, especially in HDR. This is with my nVidia set to 4K23 RGB Full 12bits 4:4:4, as per my sig below.

[huhn]

and no you don't need 10 bit for HDR with no question at all nearly all TV out there have a 8 bit panel and no banding problems.
ST2084 is created so it creates less banding in the signal but pixel doesn't work like this. pixel are run pretty much the same with SDR or HDR because the pixel are changing there brightness with the number of transistors active for each sub pixel.

the problem with the real bit deep of panels is so bit that it is close to impossibile to test a panels bit deep with signal because a 8 FRC looks so close to a real 10 bit panel that the human eye and measurement device can't easily see the difference. test are so bad that even a VG248QE a clear 6 bit panel gets 8 bit a rtings even the specs say it is 6 bit... (and obviously visible to me with test pattern not real content)

and AFAIK there is no 12 bit panel on the market at all (professional screens are 10 bit too)and a very limited number of 10 bit panels.

if that'S the result you get feel free to sick to it.

[Manni]

Originally Posted by huhn

and no you don't need 10 bit for HDR with no question at all nearly all TV out there have a 8 bit panel and no banding problems.
ST2084 is created so it creates less banding in the signal but pixel doesn't work like this. pixel are run pretty much the same with SDR or HDR because the pixel are changing there brightness with the number of transistors active for each sub pixel.

the problem with the real bit deep of panels is so bit that it is close to impossibile to test a panels bit deep with signal because a 8 FRC looks so close to a real 10 bit panel that the human eye and measurement device can't easily see the difference. test are so bad that even a VG248QE a clear 6 bit panel gets 8 bit a rtings even the specs say it is 6 bit... (and obviously visible to me with test pattern not real content)

and AFAIK there is no 12 bit panel on the market at all (professional screens are 10 bit too)and a very limited number of 10 bit panels.

if that'S the result you get feel free to sick to it.

The 2015+ JVC projectors have been confirmed to handle 12bits from the input to the panels. I don't care about flat panels so no idea if it exists for TVs or not.

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by Manni

This might be true with SDR, not with HDR. ST2084 needs at least 10bits in order to not produce any banding, especially in dark/bright areas, although it's more important in the content than for rendering.

Originally Posted by Manni

The 2015+ JVC projectors have been confirmed to handle 12bits from the input to the panels. I don't care about flat panels so no idea if it exists for TVs or not.

You still do not need a >8-bit output for displaying HDR content without banding if you have high quality dithering. 8-bit output is a little nosier but that noise is very subtle. Keep 10-bit output from madVR and 12-bit from the GPU but don't expect it to make a significant difference.

Can you tell the difference between 8-bit and 10-bit from madVR with ordered dithering enabled (with the GPU and projector settings the same)?

[mclingo]

ok, so if there is no point using 10 bit do people recommend we all drop back to 8 bit and deploy 4:4:4 full RGB on our TV, how will this effect the playback of 10 bit HDR material?

[ryrynz]

Manni calm down on your excessive quoting. If you're replying directly after a post there's no need to quote.

[Asmodian]

It gets a lot more complicated when you bring GPU drivers and TVs into it. Some need 10 bit input to trigger their HDR modes, in that case you need the GPU to output 10+ bits.

The point is that being unable to get madVR to output 10-bit is fine for image quality, even if you are watching 10 bit HDR, and 8 bit RGB or YCbCr 4:4:4 is better than 10 bit YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 unless your TV isn't good with RGB or 4:4:4 input (e.g. does its internal processing in 4:2:2).