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Old 13th October 2018, 22:31   #53181  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by zapatista View Post
i have tried the win7 overlay you suggested, no real improvement regretfully
that's odd
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thx for pointing to the poor "presentation time" as an indication of my poor video play, i can monitor that variable also now when searching for solutions

when i switch users on my win 7 install to admin user and play the same video files everything seems to run fine (using default mpc-ht and default madvr settings) see image
https://ibb.co/fFq7m9 this would at least suggest there is no hardware issues (ram etc ) or bios setup problems etc, also the current win7 install works ok when run from another user account to.

anybody know what else i can look at to find the cause of my high frame drops and poor render times? (as seen here https://ibb.co/eQ0VZU)

to me the current poor video play seems to behave as if some crumbs from a previous madvr installation might still be interfering somehow with my fresh madvr and mpc-ht re-install and their default setup
on your first screen did you disable aero?
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Old 13th October 2018, 22:41   #53182  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by mytbyte View Post
Actually, he may not even need the profiles in the PJ. Here's what I do for Panasonic UHD SDR TV:

In calibration section, I set colorspace to BT.2020 and select "report BT.2020 to display. MadVR should remap BT.709 HD bluray to BT.2020 , and the switch should put the PJ into BT.2020 mode automatically. With HDR content, if set to "tone map HDR", the passthorugh of BT2020 should also be automatic.
while you may not need that.
sending bt 2020 to a screen that is not bt 2020 is not ideal in my book. the screen needs to do heavy processing.

this is totally different if you run a screen in native mode and 3D LUT correct the image.

on projector it's an even bigger problem.
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Old 13th October 2018, 23:01   #53183  |  Link
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The answer is, however you want. Most would use NGU (any variant) for their luma/chroma upscaling and SSIM 1D/2D for downscaling.
Okay. Does it matter that it is an old processor and old ram? All that Madvr needs is a good graphics card, right?

Also, someone told me that the TV is better at scaling these resolutions to 4K, than Madvr, which is not the case, right?

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Old 13th October 2018, 23:33   #53184  |  Link
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So I spent some time testing the dynamic tone mapping on my LG B7 OLED and the latest pixel shaders for HDR in the test version 9 (with saturation boost +15, peak 750 nits, output in HDR, and measure peak). Overall, both the dynamic tone mapping and the pixel shader attempt to do the same thing, except for one key difference. The dynamic tone mapping appears to affect the whole image, while the shaders mostly impact only the highlights or sources of peak brightness. I'm not sure if this is the way it's supposed to work, but it's what I see. This is even more effective where working with a 4000 nit master, which the dynamic tone mapping helps with, but no where near as accurately as the shaders. An example of this is the bright green spear cut that is one of the test shots. For 1000 nit masters, the impact on the highlights between the two is very similar. I did see some instances of color tone changes with the shaders, but again I can't tell what was supposed to be correct in the image. Regardless, either would look normal if you didn't switch between passthough and shaders. I've only tested a few movies, but so far this is very promising and enough for now to try using the HDR pixel shaders for general usage.
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Old 14th October 2018, 00:04   #53185  |  Link
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Do you guys know since when madVR requires DirectX 11 for advanced dithering method? As I remembered, it does not have that requirement during the testing of Diffusion methods.
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Old 14th October 2018, 00:06   #53186  |  Link
ryrynz
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Originally Posted by SirSwede View Post
Okay. Does it matter that it is an old processor and old ram?
If you're using a dedicated gpu then that can matter for file decoding performance but not for madVR but it can depend on age and core count.

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Originally Posted by SirSwede View Post
All that Madvr needs is a good graphics card, right?
I used a gtx 960 for a good long time and it did well. I'd recommend anything similar or greater performance to get the most out of MadVR.

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Also, someone told me that the TV is better at scaling these resolutions to 4K, than Madvr
There are good quality scalers used today on the latest 4k tvs but nothing that can match madVR's NGU in real time built in to any consumer display or readily available device.
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Old 14th October 2018, 00:19   #53187  |  Link
mytbyte
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while you may not need that.
sending bt 2020 to a screen that is not bt 2020 is not ideal in my book. the screen needs to do heavy processing.

this is totally different if you run a screen in native mode and 3D LUT correct the image.

on projector it's an even bigger problem.
Hmm...my line of thinking is this: no display is natively BT.2020, even the ones with the widest of gamuts need to remap from native gamut to a stabdard gamut ...even plasmas were not strictly rec.709, they had wider gamuts than rec.709 natively, there is always a 3D LUT or some other processing involved to get the colors in place (especially if a display has user-accessible CMS system) and these things should be optimized to run without hickups in all circumstances...
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Old 14th October 2018, 00:31   #53188  |  Link
blaubart
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Originally Posted by SirSwede View Post
Also, someone told me that the TV is better at scaling these resolutions to 4K, than Madvr, which is not the case, right?
"the TV", there are 1000 different TVs with 100 different scaling abilities. And which answer do you expect if you ask true madVR Fan's if any TV on ths world scales better then madVR
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Old 14th October 2018, 01:40   #53189  |  Link
HDR
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Originally Posted by blu3wh0 View Post
So I spent some time testing the dynamic tone mapping on my LG B7 OLED and the latest pixel shaders for HDR in the test version 9 (with saturation boost +15, peak 750 nits, output in HDR, and measure peak). Overall, both the dynamic tone mapping and the pixel shader attempt to do the same thing, except for one key difference. The dynamic tone mapping appears to affect the whole image, while the shaders mostly impact only the highlights or sources of peak brightness. I'm not sure if this is the way it's supposed to work, but it's what I see. This is even more effective where working with a 4000 nit master, which the dynamic tone mapping helps with, but no where near as accurately as the shaders. An example of this is the bright green spear cut that is one of the test shots. For 1000 nit masters, the impact on the highlights between the two is very similar. I did see some instances of color tone changes with the shaders, but again I can't tell what was supposed to be correct in the image. Regardless, either would look normal if you didn't switch between passthough and shaders. I've only tested a few movies, but so far this is very promising and enough for now to try using the HDR pixel shaders for general usage.
I can't live without LG's "active HDR". It tries to mimic HDR10+/Dolby Vision by analyzing the whole scene and adjusting brightness and tone mapping per frame. I don't know if this is something madshi is working on or is even possible with madVR, but until/if this happens I'm sticking with LG's implementation.

It really helps with shadow detail in dark scenes. Often times madVR is simply too dark compared to LG with active HDR turned on.

You can use madVR for tone mapping and still turn on LG active HDR, but then you've got kind of a double tonemapping situation where the tv is trying to dynamically adjust brightness and highlights after madVR has already tone mapped. It doesn't quite look right IMO. Often times it will just make the highlights even darker.
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Old 14th October 2018, 01:55   #53190  |  Link
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Originally Posted by HDR View Post
It really helps with shadow detail in dark scenes. Often times madVR is simply too dark compared to LG with active HDR turned on.
Switching HDR through Windows Display settings results here in madVR too dark black clipping. Since NV 416.34 madVR is able to switch HDR by himself again (Windows>Display settings>HDR off) - black/white clipping ok now.

Last edited by blaubart; 14th October 2018 at 02:01.
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Old 14th October 2018, 03:33   #53191  |  Link
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Originally Posted by HDR View Post
I can't live without LG's "active HDR". It tries to mimic HDR10+/Dolby Vision by analyzing the whole scene and adjusting brightness and tone mapping per frame. I don't know if this is something madshi is working on or is even possible with madVR, but until/if this happens I'm sticking with LG's implementation.

It really helps with shadow detail in dark scenes. Often times madVR is simply too dark compared to LG with active HDR turned on.

You can use madVR for tone mapping and still turn on LG active HDR, but then you've got kind of a double tone mapping situation where the tv is trying to dynamically adjust brightness and highlights after madVR has already tone mapped. It doesn't quite look right IMO. Often times it will just make the highlights even darker.
I agree, however I can also clearly see the benefit of the pixel shaders in reeling in the highlights into the brightness range of the TV. The dynamic tone mapping on my LG clearly fails to do this accurately enough to recover the details, especially in the extreme regions. I've been testing out a higher peak nit value of 1000 to bring in the highlights more accurately towards something that dynamic tone mapping won't over darken or screw up.

I thought that madVR does do dynamic tone mapping to adjust brightness to the whole image, but I think this only seems to work in SDR. It should be able to do this since it does know peak brightness of each scene. However, for most of the range when output in HDR, brightness seems to be unchanged. Is this due to the static metadata that is sent for HDR? Are our TVs only relying on the HDR nits mastering in the metadata to scale brightness? Maybe if the metadata can be manipulated to send peak brightness of the scene as mastering metadata, it may change the brightness range dynamically. I don't know.
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Old 14th October 2018, 05:34   #53192  |  Link
HDR
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Originally Posted by blaubart View Post
Switching HDR through Windows Display settings results here in madVR too dark black clipping. Since NV 416.34 madVR is able to switch HDR by himself again (Windows>Display settings>HDR off) - black/white clipping ok now.
That's not the issue. I'm using NV for HDR output.

LG's active HDR dynamically adjusts the brightness of the entire image per frame. madVR does not. Because of this the madVR image appears too dark on most low/mid lit scenes compared to LG's implementation.

Anyone who has an oled can clearly see the difference between the two.

https://media.flixcar.com/f360cdn/LG...G_OLED_TVs.pdf

Quote:
*LG’s ‘Active HDR’ function analyses content on a frame by frame basis in real time, to
determine metadata for the scene. This information is then used to adjust the HDR tone-curve
to match the content, on a frame by frame basis.
Control of the ‘Active HDR’ feature is found in the ‘Dynamic Contrast’ setting in the Expert
Picture Settings menu. In HDR mode, the Dynamic Contrast settings are defined as follows:

Off - Active HDR Disabled / Contrast Enhancement Disabled

Low - Active HDR Enabled / Contrast Enhancement Disabled

Medium - Active HDR Enabled / Contrast Enhancement Low

High - Active HDR Enabled / Contrast Enhancement High
The default setting of ‘Low’ is recommended for accurate content reproduction.
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Originally Posted by blu3wh0 View Post
I agree, however I can also clearly see the benefit of the pixel shaders in reeling in the highlights into the brightness range of the TV. The dynamic tone mapping on my LG clearly fails to do this accurately enough to recover the details, especially in the extreme regions. I've been testing out a higher peak nit value of 1000 to bring in the highlights more accurately towards something that dynamic tone mapping won't over darken or screw up.
Ya, madVR is clearly better at restoring detail in extremely bright regions than the tv, but only if "highlight recovery" is turned on, and the higher setting the better, (are you insane?) is my preference.

Last edited by HDR; 14th October 2018 at 06:38.
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Old 14th October 2018, 07:30   #53193  |  Link
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It's 'are you nuts!?' considering this is madVR, maybe this should be expected?

I'd like to put forward some new setting names.
None - remove
low - Pretty mad
medium, Right mad
High - Extremely mad
Very high - Super mad
Are you nuts!? - Chris Brown mad.
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Old 14th October 2018, 08:26   #53194  |  Link
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LG's dynamic tonemapping will literally brighten up any scene that isn't super bright already. I guess they implemented it for those watching in a bright room or for those that always complain about HDR being too dark. Personally I don't like it, it's like compressing the dynamic range of an audio track so that every scene has the same volume. With madVR dark scenes will stay dark unless you use a very low target nit peaks value.
Brighter isn't always better even if a lot of people seem to think that way...
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Old 14th October 2018, 08:49   #53195  |  Link
blaubart
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That's not the issue. I'm using NV for HDR output.
?? Also Windows is using NV (Nvidia) for HDR output. To bypass the GPU you had to stream the video to the TV (or per USB). I do that often to see what Windows/madVR actually are doing wrong..

Last edited by blaubart; 14th October 2018 at 08:52.
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Old 14th October 2018, 09:05   #53196  |  Link
huhn
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windows is not using nvidia API to accept an HDR image from software.

we currently have 3 different HDR APIs.
windows own API.
nvidias API
and AMD API.

but you are just making conclusion without even known this.

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Originally Posted by mytbyte View Post
Hmm...my line of thinking is this: no display is natively BT.2020, even the ones with the widest of gamuts need to remap from native gamut to a stabdard gamut ...even plasmas were not strictly rec.709, they had wider gamuts than rec.709 natively, there is always a 3D LUT or some other processing involved to get the colors in place (especially if a display has user-accessible CMS system) and these things should be optimized to run without hickups in all circumstances...
you can not use an Tvs CMs change red to red -1 and it will create a new 3D LUT. and that'S not the point with bt2020 you send the display a ton of useless data or a lot of data that can be corrected beforehand .sending DCI P3 would be far better for the time been.
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Old 14th October 2018, 10:19   #53197  |  Link
blaubart
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..angry huhn again - do you feel better now? My above conclusions in the end were right. Having wrong black/white clipping is in the end as easy as having a buggy driver version. No theories needed for that.

Last edited by blaubart; 14th October 2018 at 10:21.
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Old 14th October 2018, 10:29   #53198  |  Link
huhn
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do i really have to quote your ycbcr stuff?

just read the FAQ: https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php...16&postcount=2
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Old 14th October 2018, 11:11   #53199  |  Link
SirSwede
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Originally Posted by blaubart View Post
"the TV", there are 1000 different TVs with 100 different scaling abilities. And which answer do you expect if you ask true madVR Fan's if any TV on ths world scales better then madVR
I actually mentioned which TV in a few of the previous posts.
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Old 14th October 2018, 12:03   #53200  |  Link
HDR
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LG's dynamic tonemapping will literally brighten up any scene that isn't super bright already. I guess they implemented it for those watching in a bright room or for those that always complain about HDR being too dark. Personally I don't like it, it's like compressing the dynamic range of an audio track so that every scene has the same volume. With madVR dark scenes will stay dark unless you use a very low target nit peaks value.
Brighter isn't always better even if a lot of people seem to think that way...
It accomplishes the same thing that HDR10+ and Dolby Vision does.

If you enjoy watching crushed blacks and a dim picture be my guest.
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