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Old 16th April 2013, 07:10   #1  |  Link
rcubed
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Problems with jitter/hesitation of BR-DVD authored with Sony DVD Architecture Pro 6

Hi,
I am new to BR-DVD authoring and have been trying multiple products in order to pick a tool that will meet my needs. I have had experience with DVD Lab Pro 2 producing standard DVDs.

I have been evaluating Vega Pro 12 and DVD Archiect Pro 6.0 for some time. I'm having a problem with BR-DVD playback with DVDA Pro 6 rendered DVDs. The source input to DVDA 6 is an x264 video file from MeGUI. DVDA does not default to require recompressing the video. However when I view the BR-DVD on my TV, the motion in several scenes the situation is what I would call jerky or hesitating. One scene is a pan of a static room, the other is when a vehicle is traveling down a road. In the vehicle case the motion of the vehicle is in small jumps rather than a smooth motion. In the static scene the pan is not smooth, but jerky. One might even refer to it as hesitating.

If I force recompression on the video stream in DVDA Pro 6 with the same bit rate the resultant BD-DVD plays smoothly. If I put the original x264 file on a BR-DVD and do a playback the motion is smooth. Also two other authoring packages do not require recompression and their resultant BR-DVD plays smoothly. The other authoring programs are TMPGenc Studio Works 5 and multiAVCHD. I realize I could always force recompression, but this should not be necessary. Something appears to different with the resultant BR-DVD files or the information DVDA Pro 6 generates during rendering with and w/o recompressing. One reason for considering a "Pro" package is the ability to produce a BR-DVD with out recompressing the original source, and I would like more flexibility in the generation of menus than TMPGenc and multiAVCHD offer.

As a side note I have considered Adobe Premiere Pro CS6, but the trial version does not include access to Encore so I am assuming an authored BR-DVD can not be produced with the trial version. Or am I missing something?

I have discussed part of this problem on VideoHelp forums:

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/354569-Error-when-trying-to-use-MeGUI-Mp4-file-as-input-to-Sony-Movie-Studio-12

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/354820-How-to-force-Sony-Architect-Studio-5-not-to-re-render-the-video

Note these threads cover problems trying to author Blu-ray DVDs in addition before I encountered the a fore mentioned problem. Originally I was using SAS5 (part of the Sony Movie Studio Platinum 12) but I switched to evaluating Vegas Pro 12 and the relevant parts of the two thread are those dealing with DVDA 6. I have not been able to resolve the jitter/hesitation problem using DVDA Pro 6. I was never able to render the video with SAS5 w/o recompressing it was always forced. All test cases have been with the same x264 file used as input to the three programs.

Apparently something is different with the BR files produced when DVDA does the two different renders of the DVD (with and w/o recompression). Are their any programs that can be used to evaluate the settings associated with the resultant m2ts files so I can compare the results of rendering the BR-DVD in DVDA Pro 6 with and w/o recompressing to see what the differences might be that would cause this problem? Or can anyone offer suggestions as to how to address and hopefully fix this? I have started looking at H264info, but it doesn't directly evaluate the m2ts format it requires .h264 video and I am not sure if demuxing the audio/video will change any information that might be present.

I appreciate any help/guidance or suggestions anyone can offer.

rcubed

PS
I realize I may be stepping on toes by posting a request for help here in addition to VideoHelp, but I am hoping the experts here that do not normally participate in VideoHelp and may be able to offer some additional suggestions or guidance. I want to thank all the people on VideoHelp that helped me through some of the other problems which have been resolved. Especially I would like to thank poisondeathray for his time/effort and guidance to get me as far as I have with BR Authoring.
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Old 21st April 2013, 19:33   #2  |  Link
Emulgator
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Source file clip, DVD-A project settings, MeGUI commandline please.
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Old 22nd April 2013, 03:17   #3  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emulgator View Post
Source file clip, DVD-A project settings, MeGUI commandline please.
Emulgator,
The source file is RAW 1920x1080 59.96i Intensity Pro capture decimated to 23.976p Difficult to post due to size.

The segment I have working with is about 13min long the source video is 724GB (1:43:55) of which I am using 13min as the test case.

I'll include screen caps of DVDA-Properties, and other stuff.

Results:
Playback of Blu-Ray iso file rendered with DVDA burned to BD-RE plays on Toshiba BD-E6500 with hesitation/jerky motion as described.

tsMuxEr mux of .264 and AC3 files to a .ts file burned to the same BD-RE and played on the Toshiba as a data video file plays smoothly no hesitation/jerky motion.

If the same files are rendered into a BR-DVD by DVDA Pro 6 forcing a recompress, the video plays normally.

All burning done with ImgBurn @2x

The attached jpg images are screen caps of the DVDA Pro 6 property files and the data info just prior to rendering. I actually send the files to a folder and then burn that to BR-DVD with ImgBurn.

The attached pdf has the MeGUI command line and log for the encode of the .264 and .ac3 files which were input to DVDA Pro 6 and MediaInfo file for the mt2s main movie video stream from the Blu-ray iso disk file. Also the MediaInfo file for the same .264 and .ac3 tsMuxEr to a .ts file.

I'll follow this post up with the screen cap of the tsMusEr data since I'm limited to 5 files per post.

If you want I could try to generate a really small section of the AviSynth output I use for testing. Please advise as to where to upload the file. It'll be big.

Thanks in advance if you can add any enlightenment to what is going on I'd really appreciate it. I did sent a request into Sony Support about a week ago, no response to date.

Thanks in advance for any help/suggestion and for taking the time to respond.

rcubed
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File Type: pdf Meida Info and MeGUI logs.pdf (128.0 KB, 36 views)
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Old 22nd April 2013, 03:37   #4  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emulgator View Post
Source file clip, DVD-A project settings, MeGUI commandline please.
Emulgator,
Here is thetsMuxeR log file from the tsMuxeR mux of the .264 and ac3 to a .ts file :

SmartLabs tsMuxeR. Version 1.10.6 http://www.smlabs.net
Decoding H264 stream (track 1): Profile: High@4.1 Resolution: 1920:1080p Frame rate: 23.976
H.264 stream does not contain fps field. Muxing fps=23.976
Decoding AC3 stream (track 2): Bitrate: 384Kbps Sample Rate: 48KHz Channels: 2
B-pyramid level 1 detected. Shift DTS to 2 frames
Processed 19638 video frames
Mux successful complete.
Muxing time: 1 min 7 sec

The original jpg had the top of the text cut off, I redid the mux (under Win XP on same machine with same data rather than reboot to Win 7 - I run Win XP on my internet machine and have to link between the encoding machine and this one under XP to share files) the result is the same on the mux operations.

I am not sure what to make of the B-pyramid level detected. Shift DTS to 2 frames comment?

I should mention I have tsMuxeR a .264 and ac3 file into a m2ts file and inputted that to DVDA Pro 6 and then rendered a BR-DVD. Same jerky result.

All the work is being done on a Intel I7 16G of memory running under Win 7 Pro 64bit.

Again thanks for looking at this.

rcubed

Last edited by rcubed; 22nd April 2013 at 03:42.
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Old 22nd April 2013, 05:08   #5  |  Link
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As your attachments are not yet approved, I dunno your settings but I can tell you that for DVDAP5 you have got to turn b-pyramid OFF in your x264 settings, otherwise on muxing, the DVDAP output can look like you've described (though what actually is happening AFAICT is frames are played out-of-sequence).

My notes say --bluray-compat turns b-pyramid ON but I believe that if you follow --blu-ray compat with --b-pyramid none then that will work. Give it a try.

It seems "B-pyramid level 1 detected." means you've got 'em. I think you can ignore the "Shift DTS" notice. Good luck.

Last edited by laserfan; 22nd April 2013 at 05:10.
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Old 22nd April 2013, 11:08   #6  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laserfan View Post
As your attachments are not yet approved, I dunno your settings but I can tell you that for DVDAP5 you have got to turn b-pyramid OFF in your x264 settings, otherwise on muxing, the DVDAP output can look like you've described (though what actually is happening AFAICT is frames are played out-of-sequence).

My notes say --bluray-compat turns b-pyramid ON but I believe that if you follow --blu-ray compat with --b-pyramid none then that will work. Give it a try.

It seems "B-pyramid level 1 detected." means you've got 'em. I think you can ignore the "Shift DTS" notice. Good luck.
Laserfan,
Yes I have B-pyramid set to strict as per previous advice in the forums. I have set it to disabled and will give it a try 1st thing tomorrow. I'll get back on the result tomorrow after I've had a chance to get some sleep .

Thanks for the tip we'll see if that helps. I am running DVDA Pro 6. I could never get DVDA Studio 5 not to recompress that is why I started trying DVDA Pro 6.

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Old 22nd April 2013, 11:14   #7  |  Link
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added MediaInfo file for recompress case

Emulgator,
Just for completeness here is the MediaInfo data on the m2ts file from the BDVM folder for the case where I forced DVDA 6 Pro to recompress the video. It's as follows:

General
ID : 0 (0x0)
Complete name : D:\BDMV\STREAM\00001.m2ts
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 1.84 GiB
Duration : 13mn 39s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 19.3 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 48.0 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Main@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 13mn 39s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 18.1 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 20.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.364
Stream size : 1.73 GiB (94%)

Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Format settings, Endianness : Big
Codec ID : 129
Duration : 13mn 39s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 384 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels

I'm going to try laserfan's suggestion tomorrow and get back. If you have any additional info please add it.

If you need any additional info please let me know.

Thanks

rcubed
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Old 22nd April 2013, 19:20   #8  |  Link
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Just one thing, Max bitrate for "DVD-BR" is around 18 Mbps, you're using 38 Mbps, so the stream is not compatible, try using vbv_maxrate=18000 / vbv_bufsize=17500.
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Old 22nd April 2013, 22:36   #9  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SquallMX View Post
Just one thing, Max bitrate for "DVD-BR" is around 18 Mbps, you're using 38 Mbps, so the stream is not compatible, try using vbv_maxrate=18000 / vbv_bufsize=17500.
SquallMX,
My understanding with the reading I have done is that for Blu-Ray DVD (BR-DVD) the allowed bit rate is at least 40Mb/s for the video, and 20Mb/s for the audio, with something like 48Mb/s max combined. For an AVCHD on a std DVD the limit is considerably lower. For the BR-DVDs I have been doing the audio is AC3 at 384Kb/s, so a maximum of 38Mb/s for the video should still be in the permissible limits.

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Old 22nd April 2013, 23:07   #10  |  Link
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Disabling B-pyramid does the trick, but why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by laserfan View Post
As your attachments are not yet approved, I dunno your settings but I can tell you that for DVDAP5 you have got to turn b-pyramid OFF in your x264 settings, otherwise on muxing, the DVDAP output can look like you've described (though what actually is happening AFAICT is frames are played out-of-sequence).

My notes say --bluray-compat turns b-pyramid ON but I believe that if you follow --blu-ray compat with --b-pyramid none then that will work. Give it a try.

It seems "B-pyramid level 1 detected." means you've got 'em. I think you can ignore the "Shift DTS" notice. Good luck.
laserfan,
Yep! disabling b-pyramid did the trick. Although from my eyes there is a softening of the detail in the result as viewed on TV. The b-pyramid seems to preserve fine detail.

What the heck is going on with DVDA Pro? One would expect it to handle the situation correctly for the price(s) they charge. Other cheaper authoring programs like TMPGenc Authoring Works 5 and the free multiAVCHD even handle it correctly i.e. no jiitter. Unfortunately they don't offer the menu flexibility that DVDA does. I wonder how Sony's $10K+ versions handle it.

Is it actually the frame order, or the fields within the frames that are being messed up? I had kind of suspected it was a field order thing, but was unable to dig out anything that covered the field order in progressive (with fields interlaced) video. I know for sure in the source as captured it is TFF. I tried forcing TFF in MeGUI to see what would happen even though the TFF there is (AFAIK) to deal with interlaced frames video. It didn't help (as I expected).

From the results I would suspect that DVDA Pro is not setting correctly or omitting some info in one of the configuration files (headers?) when it renders the BR-DVD.

Does anyone out there know where this info is provided in the BR-DVD structure. Is there a hack for it in DVDA pro i.e. a hidden setting in some sub menu that I have missed?

My hat is off to you laserfan for solving an issue that has been bugging me about 3-4 weeks. I really appreciate your help!!!!! (so does my wife, the smoke coming from my computer room has been spreading rather thick in the house lately). Not to mention some screaming (with words/adjectives I won't mention) directed at Sony!

Thanks again!

rcubed

Last edited by rcubed; 22nd April 2013 at 23:11.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 13:12   #11  |  Link
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You're welcome. I spent many, many (more) weeks myself puzzling over this bizarre problem and it seems to me there are only a couple posts/pages on the entire World Wide Web that even mention it, and nothing at all that truly explains it AFAIK.

>What the heck is going on with DVDA Pro? One would expect it to handle the situation correctly

Clearly they did not expect/test for this feature in x264.

>Is it actually the frame order, or the fields within the frames that are being messed up? I had kind of suspected it was a field order thing

It's been a while since I worked on this, but it seems to me the problem exists with non-interlaced programs as well. Indeed I don't think I ever even TRIED using an interlaced program in my testing.

>from my eyes there is a softening of the detail

I have never seen any difference but it could be the type of program you are dealing with.

What to me is most bizarre about this problem is that I have only used DVDAP to create a menu system and output to BD format. I don't even use its muxer i.e. I create the BDMV folder with menus, chapters, etc. using DUMMY m2ts files, and then copy-over them my own m2ts, clpi, and mpls files that I've created with x264 and tsMuxeR. I honestly do not have any idea why this would/could/should result in the stutter effect on playback. I found it only by trial-and-error.

As I write this it occurs to me "well maybe my dummy files are of a type X and the files I replace them with are a type Y and so the navigational commands are wrong somehow" but just thinking about this makes my head hurt...I can't even tell you how hard it was for me first to find a frame sequence that reliably exhibited the problem, and then how many dozens-nay-hundreds of encodes/recodes/muxes/remuxes/x264-command-changes I went thru to confirm it.



p.s. Maybe if you search here on "Sony pyramid" you will find more to satisfy your interest. I did find one of (my own) posts that another company has the same problem as Sony w/b-pyramid

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1540153&postcount=1765

Last edited by laserfan; 23rd April 2013 at 13:23.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 22:10   #12  |  Link
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thanks again

laserfan,
You and I share the same pain and frustration. I also searched all over the internet trying to find a solution. Once I found out it was in the b-pyramid setting searching for that along with Sony DVDA produced some links that were discussing it. I'll check out the thread you gave the link to.

Again thanks very much for the help. I hope I can be as much help in the future.

rcubed
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Old 25th April 2013, 21:30   #13  |  Link
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Sorry for coming back so late, and (un)happy to hear that b-pyramid (even strict) again was at fault.
And happy to hear that laserfan could find a way.
The Sony BD muxer, although licensed to different companies in a broad manner,
still accepted no interlaced footage from x264 last time I tried it.
And SCS not responding, bleh...
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Old 26th April 2013, 03:29   #14  |  Link
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yep

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emulgator View Post
Sorry for coming back so late, and (un)happy to hear that b-pyramid (even strict) again was at fault.
And happy to hear that laserfan could find a way.
The Sony BD muxer, although licensed to different companies in a broad manner,
still accepted no interlaced footage from x264 last time I tried it.
And SCS not responding, bleh...
Emulgator,
I'm done messing with Sony. I've opted for Adobe Primere Pro CS6. I don't think it's MeGUI's fault but Sony. I have an extreme dislike for Sony that started with the HDCP BS. I guess they think they learned a lesson from the VHS/Beta wars and have gotten really nasty. I gave them a chance and they failed miserably so to h-e-double hockey-sticks to them.

Thanks for getting back. You've been a big help in the past. Thanks,

rcubed
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Old 26th April 2013, 13:25   #15  |  Link
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SCS is a small company in Wisconsin that was bought by Sony back in 2003. IMO they shouldn't necessarily be lumped-in with Sony Japan's actions in the marketplace which truly fry my bacon also.

No doubt under-resourced and under-funded, I'm inclined to cut them just a little bit of slack though I must admit their customer support appears almost non-existent therefore horrible to the extreme and I don't know how they can possibly rationalize that to themselves. You may not be resourced to fix certain types of problems, but IMO there's no excuse for not being forthright about them.
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Old 28th April 2013, 06:28   #16  |  Link
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Good News!

Hi all,

I built my 1st test BR-DVD with Adobe Premiere Pro CS6 and although my skills with building menus needs a lot of refining I am really happy to report none of the jerky hesitation in the playback with the BR player. Plus there was no recompressing the MeGUI .264 file. Now the long learning curve for a new piece of software.

At least there are a few software houses that manage to get it right, unlike those that will remain nameless.

Very happy!!!!!!

rcubed

Thanks to all for their help I really appreciate it.
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Old 28th April 2013, 13:11   #17  |  Link
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Eight hundred bucks!?!!?

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Old 29th April 2013, 05:23   #18  |  Link
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not quite that bad $

Quote:
Originally Posted by laserfan View Post
Eight hundred bucks!?!!?

laserfan,
No considerably cheaper than that. Found a site that had it for only about $100 more than Sony was charging for Vegas Pro even with their "special discount price". It's kind of a hobby so computer stuff is one thing I entertain myself with these days. It's a tool I hope to be using for years in the future.

Cheers,

Cuber
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