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Old 5th May 2018, 17:40   #50681  |  Link
brazen1
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I'm pretty sure you can run two different instances of LAV also. Why not try your two different versions of madVR with your two different players and see what each shows as a version in the Windows notification area on your taskbar. Press Ctrl + S during playback from each player and see what version of madVR it displays.
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Old 5th May 2018, 17:44   #50682  |  Link
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Yes, they both show different versions, when playing from each player. And they both have their own settings.bin.
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Old 5th May 2018, 18:02   #50683  |  Link
brazen1
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Hmmmm? I usually dial back my madVR settings to accommodate all videos that fall within certain profiles. I don't want to tailor madVR or anything else based on the variances in titles other than what profiles already offer. For instance, one 1080p title can use some very high settings. Another 1080p needs the settings dialed back. There is nothing a profile would distinguish differently between the two titles. One is just more resource intensive than the other. Perhaps I could use one version of madVR with settings appropriate for one title using MPC-BE, and another version of madVR for the other more intensive titles using MPC-HC for example? I can call up as many different players in my front end (KODI) as I desire to add. Presently I'm using 5 different players default assigned where each shines best.

MPC players only allow to select which renderer, not versions of the same renderer. This could pose a problem. madVR versions would need to be added in front end software unless someone knows how to associate madVR versions with players. This could be a wild goose chase. Only want to use one front end.

One example that would work appears to use ZoomPlayer with one madVR version and MPC with another. I may give this a try....
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Old 5th May 2018, 19:02   #50684  |  Link
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After installing a NVIDIA GTX 1080 and tired of the constant bugs of the various drivers, I reassembled my "old" AMD RX480 and the first thing I noticed that even with version 92.14 I had 10bit and not 8bit, so the "problem" it exists only for NVIDIA.
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Old 5th May 2018, 19:16   #50685  |  Link
brazen1
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Yes, we know. Nvidia does not offer RGB 10bit. Never has. Only 8 and 12. Just use 8bit until maybe one day they decide to get around to it unless your display handles 12bit perfectly..... yawn.
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Old 5th May 2018, 21:11   #50686  |  Link
Asmodian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
There was banding only in passthrough, only in fullscreen windowed mode, only in Windows 10, and it was very minor. So not that surprising.

People are noticing the number 8 because in most cases, there was NO banding in 10bits, but they now have (momentarily until it's restored) lost that feature, so it's very understandable they notice the unnecessary limitation and didn't notice anything before, when everything was working fine with no banding at all (or very minor one if win10 FSW passthrough).
I think you missed huhn's point.

People are not noticing a change in image quality, they only notice the change in the number in the OSD. If madVR lied and said it was outputting 10 bit when it was really dithered 8 bit no one who is noticing this change now would have noticed.

You have to do very specific tests with dithering disabled to even be able to tell if it is 8 or 10 bit. I really do not understand why so many people are so obsessed with 10 or 12 bit output. We have people using 4:2:2 chroma subsampling because they want 12 bit.

I see why madshi didn't worry about 10 bit for so long, bit depth is massively overrated by the casual HTPC user.

Then you have displays like mine, which offer better image quality using 8 bits, and people still want to send them 10 bit. Even I have to recheck this fact every once in a while.

10 bit just seems like it should be much better, but it really isn't.
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Old 5th May 2018, 21:24   #50687  |  Link
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it get's really interesting if you check part used in TVs and see that nearly every high end TV is 8 bit.
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Old 5th May 2018, 21:42   #50688  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
I think you missed huhn's point.

People are not noticing a change in image quality, they only notice the change in the number in the OSD. If madVR lied and said it was outputting 10 bit when it was really dithered 8 bit no one who is noticing this change now would have noticed.

You have to do very specific tests with dithering disabled to even be able to tell if it is 8 or 10 bit. I really do not understand why so many people are so obsessed with 10 or 12 bit output. We have people using 4:2:2 chroma subsampling because they want 12 bit.

I see why madshi didn't worry about 10 bit for so long, bit depth is massively overrated by the casual HTPC user.

Then you have displays like mine, which offer better image quality using 8 bits, and people still want to send them 10 bit. Even I have to recheck this fact every once in a while.

10 bit just seems like it should be much better, but it really isn't.
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it get's really interesting if you check part used in TVs and see that nearly every high end TV is 8 bit.
This is a very good point and shows that sometimes people become so obsessed with the numbers that they forget to just sit back and enjoy watching their content

It does make me wonder though about a lot of the current high end sets that say they are 10 bit, but are actually 8bit + FRC, which as I understand it is dithering at the TV end. In this scenario are we best off sending 8bit from MadVR or 10 bit and above?
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Old 5th May 2018, 21:47   #50689  |  Link
ntropy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
If your brightness is at 30% then don't using the "500 nits" marketing as a data point, it is probably closer to 120-180 nits. It is 500 nits at 100% brightness (and nits is not linear with brightness).

I thought that "let madVR decide" would be the same as converting to SDR with your display, it converts to SDR with pixel shader math on SDR displays and does passthrough on HDR displays. That said maybe it does do something different, ignoring or overwriting bad metadata comes to mind from past discussion. We do know the paths are different, based on a recent bug that had an effect when set to convert to SDR with pixel shaders but not when using let madVR decide.
So I should turn the iMac display's brightness up to 100%? I tried it. It looked bright.
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Old 5th May 2018, 22:10   #50690  |  Link
Manni
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
I think you missed huhn's point.

People are not noticing a change in image quality, they only notice the change in the number in the OSD. If madVR lied and said it was outputting 10 bit when it was really dithered 8 bit no one who is noticing this change now would have noticed.

You have to do very specific tests with dithering disabled to even be able to tell if it is 8 or 10 bit. I really do not understand why so many people are so obsessed with 10 or 12 bit output. We have people using 4:2:2 chroma subsampling because they want 12 bit.

I see why madshi didn't worry about 10 bit for so long, bit depth is massively overrated by the casual HTPC user.

Then you have displays like mine, which offer better image quality using 8 bits, and people still want to send them 10 bit. Even I have to recheck this fact every once in a while.

10 bit just seems like it should be much better, but it really isn't.
I didn't miss anything at all. I'm only saying that it was only a very small minority of users that were affected by very minor banding (provided their displays were able to handle 10-12bits of course), but the latest version nukes this for ALL nVidia users, including those that had NO banding whatsoever because they were not using passthrough.

I'm aware that many people should be using 8bits for various reasons, and using 4:2:2 just to get 10bits is clearly a bad idea, but if you can get 10bits 4:4:4, that's a bit less noise than with 8bits 4:4:4, so I don't see why this should go.

Of course, most of you have displays that can't handle more than 8bits, or that could handle 10bits but not the 12bits that nVidia sends, so you keep harping about "no difference" between 8bits and 10bits, but that's simply not true if you have a 10bits or 12bits capable panel.

And by the way, I don't know any "casual" HTPC user that uses MadVR. I'm certainly not a "casual" HTPC user, and neither are you or most of those posting in this thread.

There is nothing better about 10bits regarding banding, MadVR's dithering is excellent, but there is simply a bit less noise than with 8bits.
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Old 5th May 2018, 23:19   #50691  |  Link
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Oh, I agree. It would be better to have SDR modes still output 10 bit in fullscreen windowed, it was simply much worse to output 10 bit HDR in fullscreen windowed with an Nvidia GPU and this was a very quick fix.

madshi's fix was too simple but there are probably a lot more users using HDR passthrough than those that get a real benefit from 10 bit (sorry you are one of the few). Almost everyone with an HDR display is going to be using an HDR output mode because otherwise the display does not even enable its HDR mode. The only reason to use SDR output with HDR content is if you do not have an HDR display, or in your very special case with custom tone mapping that assumes HDR content in what the OS and drivers treat as SDR. They are also very likely to enable 10 bit because HDR displays support it and of course 10 is better. I have seen a lot of users with LG or Samsung HDR TVs and Nvidia GPUs in this thread.

I am not saying your case is bad, or even pointless. We want the best quality possible at all times. madVR should enable 10 bit output for fullscreen windowed anytime it is not using Nvidia's HDR API. I was simply pointing out that 10 bit is subtle enough that most people can only notice it in the OSD, not in the image, even with true 10 bit panels.

Comparing 6 bit dithering to 8 bit dithering is a good way for anyone to get an idea of the difference even without a proper 10 bit panel and 6 to 8 bit is a MUCH more significant difference compared to 8 to 10 bit. Seeing the noise due to static 8 bit ordered dithering done in linear light is... tricky, it does affect the image quality but it is very hard to see.

If this does affect you negatively you have to use FSE or an older version of madVR for now.
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Old 6th May 2018, 00:02   #50692  |  Link
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Quote:
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I reported this when Windows 10 1803 was still an insider build but it seems it's still an issue.

I have upgraded two computers to Windows 10 1803 and both of them now have an issue where the video freezes for about 2-5 seconds whenever entering exclusive fullscreen mode. Downgrading back to the previous version of Windows 10 fixes it on both computers.

Titan XP, latest NVIDIA drivers/MadVR/MPC-BE. Default settings everywhere for testing.
I have to confirm. Please fix.
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Old 6th May 2018, 03:44   #50693  |  Link
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Hey guys, kind of dumb question that may have already been answered. But for bitmap subtitles played back from a DVD source, is there any way to skip upscaling of the subtitles and leave them untouched? They seem to get upscaled along with the image. Which kind of makes the text look pretty smudgy.
Just curious.
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Old 6th May 2018, 04:27   #50694  |  Link
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But for bitmap subtitles played back from a DVD source, is there any way to skip upscaling of the subtitles and leave them untouched?
Are you sure you want them at their original size? They are minuscule. You likely won't be able to read them at their original size.

VobSub had a cool option back in the day to "vectorize" bitmap subtitles. It sometimes broke but when it worked it was so good. I don't think anything offers that anymore.
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Old 6th May 2018, 04:52   #50695  |  Link
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someone has problems with Windows 10 1803 update? Something strange happens after the update on my laptop, the render times droped from 16 ms to 10 or 12 ms (2k upscaling to 4k), I know, it's a good thing, but it seems very strange to me. Usually after an update of MS, things never get better ... I checked all the Madvr settings and they are the same as yesterday ...

Example 4k HDR window modem downscaling

BEFORE UPDATE


AFTER UPDATE
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Old 6th May 2018, 05:22   #50696  |  Link
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Rendering times are near meaningless without knowing the clock speeds. Maybe things are more efficient, don't know.

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Old 6th May 2018, 05:29   #50697  |  Link
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Rendering times are near meaningless without knowing the clock speeds. Maybe things are more efficient, don't know.
the clock speeds are the same in before and after update. I do not change anything in the hardware configuration or settings.
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Old 6th May 2018, 06:07   #50698  |  Link
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I get lower rendering times reported too but I cannot push my settings higher. Now I start getting dropped frames at rendering times much lower than the frame time. I think this a change in the rendering time's measurement, not a change in performance.

Quote:
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It does make me wonder though about a lot of the current high end sets that say they are 10 bit, but are actually 8bit + FRC, which as I understand it is dithering at the TV end. In this scenario are we best off sending 8bit from MadVR or 10 bit and above?
This is entirely dependent on the display. If is has a good internal pathway that preserves madVR's dithering in 10 bit until the panel, and its FRC algorithm is good, it can be better to send it 10 bit. Most of my displays have not been ulta high end and have not done 10 bit better than 8 bit. I did have a 10 bit monitor that had a very good 10 bit pathway, at least as far as I could determine in testing, and it was an 8 bit + FRC panel.
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Old 6th May 2018, 06:57   #50699  |  Link
MrBonk
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Are you sure you want them at their original size? They are minuscule. You likely won't be able to read them at their original size.

VobSub had a cool option back in the day to "vectorize" bitmap subtitles. It sometimes broke but when it worked it was so good. I don't think anything offers that anymore.
No, tiny text is not good. Was just hoping they could be upscaled separately maybe using a more pleasant algorithm for text.
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Old 6th May 2018, 08:00   #50700  |  Link
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I'm assuming you did, but did you make sure you selected a different refresh rate than the one you are trying to customize (e.g. anything besides 23hz?).
Yes, I'm applying customized 23hz refresh rate while in 60hz mode.
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