Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Video Encoding > MPEG-4 AVC / H.264

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 1st June 2008, 19:43   #41  |  Link
MfA
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,075
Small moving objects as focal points in a scene seem pretty much worst case scenario for this method.
MfA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2008, 19:45   #42  |  Link
Dark Shikari
x264 developer
 
Dark Shikari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 8,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by MfA View Post
Small moving objects as focal points in a scene seem pretty much worst case scenario for this method.
Which is somewhat odd, because the research actually shows that moving objects should be worse quality than they currently are (e.g. motion-based adaptive quantization).
Dark Shikari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2008, 19:47   #43  |  Link
akupenguin
x264 developer
 
akupenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
Which is somewhat odd, because the research actually shows that moving objects should be worse quality than they currently are (e.g. motion-based adaptive quantization).
Not if they're the focus. Then you track that one object and the rest of the frame counts as moving.
akupenguin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2008, 19:52   #44  |  Link
Dark Shikari
x264 developer
 
Dark Shikari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 8,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by akupenguin View Post
Not if they're the focus. Then you track that one object and the rest of the frame counts as moving.
Hmm, true. Of course, its hard to make an algorithm that decides what is the "focus" of the scene...
Dark Shikari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2008, 20:24   #45  |  Link
Dark Shikari
x264 developer
 
Dark Shikari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 8,688
New patch. Updates:

1. Ignores chroma. This speeds things up and didn't seem to change things visually at all. Even if we used chroma, it should probably be weighted a lot lower anyways.

2. Raises B-RDO threshold.

3. Now available as a commandline option (--rdcmp).
Dark Shikari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2008, 20:32   #46  |  Link
jethro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 100
Nice discussion. The differences between what people consider to be better might be due to their displays (because i don't think our eyes differ this much). For example, in x264 encodes I don't see much ringing on my monitor but i definitely see blurring and ugly smearing of details (esp without VAQ). This new RD seems to make pictures more 'dirty' which is similar in effect to dct noise mentioned in xvid encodes. Of course, there are also preferences but I can't believe displays aren't a factor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin7777 View Post
Truthfully, I rather prefer the second picture, honestly. The jaggies introduced along all of the edges are making my eyes bleed. If this can be fixed by lowering aq, then great! But frankly, I will take something over the jaggies. Sorry DS.
Yes, the jaggies come from VAQ. I noticed that default AQ 1.0 seems too strong for low resolutions as object edges get few bits. I often find myself using AQ 0.5-0.7 for something like 720x304. For HD res actually AQ 1.0 is fine and AQ 0.5 gets blocky.

EDIT: I'd like to add that I also prefer details over artifacts

Last edited by jethro; 1st June 2008 at 20:37.
jethro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2008, 20:54   #47  |  Link
Dark Shikari
x264 developer
 
Dark Shikari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 8,688
Here's a really dramatic example of Psy RDO's effectiveness:

No Psy RDO

Psy RDO
Dark Shikari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2008, 21:12   #48  |  Link
Atak_Snajpera
RipBot264 author
 
Atak_Snajpera's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Poland
Posts: 7,438
Screenshots from frame 600

PSY ON


PSY OFF
Atak_Snajpera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2008, 22:23   #49  |  Link
IgorC
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,318
I think it also depends of resolution. My sample had dvd resolution while new psy rdo maybe more optimized for HD. Artifacts look different for HD and DVD. And of course it depends of display and other conditions of watching samples.
IgorC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2008, 22:42   #50  |  Link
Sagittaire
Testeur de codecs
 
Sagittaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: France
Posts: 2,488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post

Edit: Oh, another possible issue is that FGO lowers B-frame quantizers and adjusts RD thresholds, which this doesn't (yet). Thus comparisons could potentially get misleading when trying to compare just the RD metric alone.
After size analyse I think that it's simply a different complexity analysis. For really grainy picture (with really fine grain) fgo mode will use really more bit than psy mode.

vs vs

PSY vs FGO vs Elecard

31 832 vs 64 267 vs 63 751 bits (all frame are Pframe)

And here FGO produce by far the best quality ...
__________________
Le Sagittaire ... ;-)

1- Ateme AVC or x264
2- VP7 or RV10 only for anime
3- XviD, DivX or WMV9

Last edited by Sagittaire; 1st June 2008 at 23:16.
Sagittaire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2008, 23:03   #51  |  Link
Razorholt
Cyberspace Citizen
 
Razorholt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagittaire View Post
After size analyse I think that it's simply a different complexity analysis. For really grainy picture (with really fine grain) fgo mode will use really more bit than psy mode.

vs vs

PSY vs FGO vs Elecard

31 832 vs 64 267 vs 63 751 bits

And here FGO produce by far the best quality ...

How about the original frame? How many bits?
Razorholt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2008, 23:09   #52  |  Link
Adub
Fighting spam with a fish
 
Adub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,685
I agree. FGO does seem to come out better here.
__________________
FAQs:Bond's AVC/H.264 FAQ
Site:Adubvideo
Adub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2008, 23:11   #53  |  Link
Dark Shikari
x264 developer
 
Dark Shikari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 8,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin7777 View Post
I agree. FGO does seem to come out better here.
Given that its frame size is double that of psy RDO, how am I not surprised?

If its a B-frame, you can compensate for that by setting pbratio lower... that's what FGO does anyways and its probably wrong to put anything into mainline x264 that changes settings like that when the user should be in control of it.

If it isn't, maybe you didn't use the same bitrate for the two clips...?

Also, note that here, the Elecard frame isn't even the same frame of the video...

Last edited by Dark Shikari; 1st June 2008 at 23:13.
Dark Shikari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2008, 23:11   #54  |  Link
Sagittaire
Testeur de codecs
 
Sagittaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: France
Posts: 2,488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorholt View Post
How about the original frame? How many bits?
Source is FFV1 master ...
__________________
Le Sagittaire ... ;-)

1- Ateme AVC or x264
2- VP7 or RV10 only for anime
3- XviD, DivX or WMV9
Sagittaire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2008, 23:15   #55  |  Link
Sagittaire
Testeur de codecs
 
Sagittaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: France
Posts: 2,488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
Given that its frame size is double that of psy RDO, how am I not surprised?
Yes not surprising for quality. The surprise come from decision. Here FGO seem make better choice than PSY mode. It's a really complexe frame with very fine but visible grain (grain on blue sky)

Quote:
If its a B-frame, you can compensate for that by setting pbratio lower... that's what FGO does anyways and its probably wrong to put anything into mainline x264 that changes settings like that when the user should be in control of it.
Only Pframe here.

Quote:
If it isn't, maybe you didn't use the same bitrate for the two clips...?
6900 Kbps for overall bitrate (more than 200 000 frames).


Quote:
Also, note that here, the Elecard frame isn't even the same frame of the video...
yes because it's bframe for Elecard. Anyway all the Pframe for the encoded sequence are the same size with equivalent grain complexity for picture source. So the comparison is correct here.
__________________
Le Sagittaire ... ;-)

1- Ateme AVC or x264
2- VP7 or RV10 only for anime
3- XviD, DivX or WMV9

Last edited by Sagittaire; 1st June 2008 at 23:20.
Sagittaire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2008, 23:16   #56  |  Link
Razorholt
Cyberspace Citizen
 
Razorholt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagittaire View Post
Source is FFV1 master ...
Thanks Sagittaire. I just wanted to find out whether PSY was actually increasing the size of the video, as FGO does.
Razorholt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2008, 23:16   #57  |  Link
Dark Shikari
x264 developer
 
Dark Shikari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 8,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagittaire View Post
Yes not surprising for quality. The surprise come from decision. Here FGO seem make better choice than PSY mode. It's a really complexe frame with very fine but visible grain (grain on blue sky)
I'm proposing that FGO has absolutely nothing to do with the double-size frame and that there has been user error here, such as comparing B-frames with different pbratio or encoding with different bitrates. Especially since the clips you posted earlier were not even of the same video clip, I don't exactly trust that you've done everything right here...
Dark Shikari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2008, 23:29   #58  |  Link
Sagittaire
Testeur de codecs
 
Sagittaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: France
Posts: 2,488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
I'm proposing that FGO has absolutely nothing to do with the double-size frame and that there has been user error here, such as comparing B-frames with different pbratio or encoding with different bitrates. Especially since the clips you posted earlier were not even of the same video clip, I don't exactly trust that you've done everything right here...
Well it's just fast size partition with mkvmerge without range selection. Anyway the overall bitrate for the complete encoding are exactly the same: 6.9 Mbps. Sample come from complete encoding (more than 200 000 frame). It's just local difference for this frame. For the Pframe 47 499 I have another size: 122 889 vs 130 734 vs 99 707, and for the 64 190 frame another size: 82 008 vs 44 114 vs 74 374.


Source is Casino Royal with really different grain level.
__________________
Le Sagittaire ... ;-)

1- Ateme AVC or x264
2- VP7 or RV10 only for anime
3- XviD, DivX or WMV9

Last edited by Sagittaire; 1st June 2008 at 23:34.
Sagittaire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd June 2008, 01:48   #59  |  Link
ToS_Maverick
x264 Tester
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Austria, near Vienna
Posts: 223
about the frequencies and the quantization...

that sounds like Psy RDO works somehow like a custom matrix? I understand that a matrix uses fixed values, but it goes into the same direction, be more "kind" to the lower frequencies, to avoid blocking, preserving a good "look"...
ToS_Maverick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd June 2008, 08:10   #60  |  Link
Sagittaire
Testeur de codecs
 
Sagittaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: France
Posts: 2,488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
I'm proposing that FGO has absolutely nothing to do with the double-size frame and that there has been user error here, such as comparing B-frames with different pbratio or encoding with different bitrates. Especially since the clips you posted earlier were not even of the same video clip, I don't exactly trust that you've done everything right here...
Well I find the problem ... it's a Rate Control problem between first and second pass. With the same final bitrate crf mode produce really better result.


2 pass mode with fast first pass:

x264.exe --threads 3 --thread-input --keyint 24 --min-keyint 2 --vbv-maxrate 20000 --vbv-bufsize 30000 --mvrange 511 --level 4.1 --bframe 3 --b-pyramid --bime --weightb --ref 1 --mixed-refs --direct auto --deblock -2:-2 --bitrate 6900 --pass 1 --stats "casino.log" --ipratio 1.10 --pbratio 1.10 --partitions "all" --8x8dct --me "hex" --subme 5 --trellis 0 --aq-mode 0 --aq-strength 0.00 --aud --nal-hrd --sar 1:1 --cqmfile Sagittaire.cfg --progress -o NUL Lossless.avs

And after I use always the same casino.log stat for all the encoding.

x264.exe --threads 3 --thread-input --keyint 24 --min-keyint 1 --vbv-maxrate 20000 --vbv-bufsize 30000 --mvrange 511 --level 4.1 --bframe 3 --b-pyramid --b-rdo --bime --weightb --ref 3 --mixed-refs --direct auto --deblock -2:-2 --bitrate 6900 --pass 2 --stats "casino.log" --ipratio 1.10 --pbratio 1.10 --partitions "all" --8x8dct --me "umh" --subme 7 --trellis 2 --aq-mode 2 --aq-strength 1.00 --no-fast-pskip --no-dct-decimate --aud --nal-hrd --sar 1:1 --cqmfile Sagittaire.cfg --zone 201560,207442,b=0.33 --progress -o 1080p_3.264 Lossless.avs


Quality mode:

x264.exe --threads auto --thread-input --keyint 24 --min-keyint 1 --crf %E_BR% --vbv-maxrate %MAX_BR% --vbv-bufsize %BUF_BR% --mvrange 511 --level 4.1 --bframe 3 --b-pyramid --b-rdo --bime --weightb --ref 3 --mixed-refs --direct auto --deblock -2:-2 --ipratio 1.10 --pbratio 1.10 --partitions "all" --8x8dct --me "umh" --subme 7 --trellis 2 --no-fast-pskip --no-dct-decimate --aud --nal-hrd --sar 1:1 --cqmfile Sagittaire.cfg --aq-strength 1.00 --aq-mode 2 --zone %CRE_FR%,%END_FR%,b=0.33 --progress -o 1080p_Q1.264 %E_SRC%


With 2 pass encoding and exactly the same setting than crf mode (and same final bitrate) I have completely different Rate Control (for example 31 832 bits vs 70 926 bits for frame 20 491). VAQ + PSY seem imply major modification in RC between first and second pass. It's perhaps necessary to use VAQ and PSY in first pass too ... ???
__________________
Le Sagittaire ... ;-)

1- Ateme AVC or x264
2- VP7 or RV10 only for anime
3- XviD, DivX or WMV9

Last edited by Sagittaire; 2nd June 2008 at 08:14.
Sagittaire is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
psy-rd, psyrdo

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 23:02.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.