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Old 24th January 2020, 23:15   #58441  |  Link
Asmodian
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This was a discussion in response to nsnhd about turning off dithering and noticing that 10 bit was smoother than 8 bit and thinking that it meant something.

Edit: You decided YCbCr 10 bit 422 looked better than YCbCr 8 bit 422 with dithering disabled or enabled? There is an implicit choice between 8 and 10 bit in your preferred mode.
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Last edited by Asmodian; 24th January 2020 at 23:20.
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Old 24th January 2020, 23:21   #58442  |  Link
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@mclingo, thank you for the explanation, I'm going to read links
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Old 24th January 2020, 23:40   #58443  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
This was a discussion in response to nsnhd about turning off dithering and noticing that 10 bit was smoother than 8 bit and thinking that it meant something.

Edit: You decided YCbCr 10 bit 422 looked better than YCbCr 8 bit 422 with dithering disabled or enabled? There is an implicit choice between 8 and 10 bit in your preferred mode.
That's why I said in response to nsnhd's post that there is no good way to test for bit depth. Instead, you can test for banding. And again, my final choice for using 10-bit wasn't based purely on bit depth, but with 4:2:2, 10-bit is banding-free while 8-bit is far from it. I did not find the same to be true using any other combo. 8-bit always wins (compared to 12-bit, when there is a choice).

Maybe I should rephrase: When testing for banding, whether you do it with or without dithering, your final choice should always be based on what looks best the way you actually watch it: with dithering enabled.
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Old 25th January 2020, 00:54   #58444  |  Link
Asmodian
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Ok, totally agree.

But I still think testing with madVR's and/or the GPU's dithering disabled is pointless, except academically.
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Old 25th January 2020, 05:44   #58445  |  Link
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After your discussions I've redone the testing, from now on madVR's dithering is always enabled (Ordered Dithering).
When GPU output is set to 10bit RGB Full in NCP, no difference between 8bit/10bit outputs from madVR FSW can be seen by playing gradient files.
But, when GPU is set to 8bit and of course madVR output FSW also changed to 8bit, I can now see more banding compared to the above 10bit GPU setting.

So, what can I know about my monitor now, or still nothing ?
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Old 25th January 2020, 06:47   #58446  |  Link
huhn
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if the test is done correctly this would mean your screen is incorrectly handling 8 bit input so it will add additional banding for pretty much every application.

the current stable version of madVR shouldn't stop you from sending 10 bit even when the GPU is set to 8 bit output actually there is quite a good reason to still do that but i guess madshi wants to work around an nvidia driver bug i haven't checked in a log time.

you should use full screen exclusive for this test and not windowed full screen because WFS is know to produce a lot of banding when the GPU outputs 8 bit but get's a 10 bit input.
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Old 25th January 2020, 10:59   #58447  |  Link
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I've noticed with 23.976 HDR content played back at 23.976 sections of the screen are extra blurry (almost like they are pulsating/flickering) when panning (eg. fence or branches/leaves on a tree in background). If I play back at 59.940 (with smooth motion off - with it on the issue is still there) this almost goes away.

If I turn off HDR (tone map hdr using pixel shaders), this issue is completely gone at any frame rate and with or without smooth motion.

This happens even after restoring default madvr settings.

Last edited by glc650; 25th January 2020 at 11:04.
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Old 27th January 2020, 13:13   #58448  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VBB View Post
If you're unsure whether your display is 8-bit or 10-bit, there really isn't a test to determine that 100% anyway. But if you know the bit depth, you can certainly test for banding in different desktop and TV modes. And for that, I would recommend disabling dithering in madVR. You still can't be sure that the video card itself doesn't do any dithering, but it's a start. Just make sure to turn it back on when you're done testing.
I understand what @VBB does and why, and I agree with him.
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Old 27th January 2020, 17:15   #58449  |  Link
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I have my JVC RS600 calibrated for both BT.709 and BT.2020. In the past, I've accomplished this by using 3DLUTs for both color spaces, and madvr will automatically select the correct 3DLUT based on the video metadata. However, I upgraded to a Stewart ST130 G4 screen and the manual calibration result was so good, there's no real need for a 3DLUT. If I select "Disable calibration controls for this display", will that allow me to switch between BT.2020 and BT.709 content by just selecting the appropriate mode on my PJ? I thought that mode was equivalent to BT.709, Gamma Power 2.2.
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Old 28th January 2020, 04:53   #58450  |  Link
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no it will not.

in sdr output "Disable calibration controls for this display" is pretty much bt 709 gamma 2.2.
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Old 28th January 2020, 12:30   #58451  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonwc18 View Post
I have my JVC RS600 calibrated for both BT.709 and BT.2020. In the past, I've accomplished this by using 3DLUTs for both color spaces, and madvr will automatically select the correct 3DLUT based on the video metadata. However, I upgraded to a Stewart ST130 G4 screen and the manual calibration result was so good, there's no real need for a 3DLUT. If I select "Disable calibration controls for this display", will that allow me to switch between BT.2020 and BT.709 content by just selecting the appropriate mode on my PJ? I thought that mode was equivalent to BT.709, Gamma Power 2.2.
It depends if you're using the same calibration for both, and which device you're using.

Unfortunately the rs600 on its own is unable to detect SDR BT2020 vs rec-709 and switch automatically between a rec-709 and a BT2020 calibration. It's only able to detect HDR10 and apply its awful gamma D curve, which you definitely don't want.

So you have three ways to use madVR to automatically display the content correctly:

1) You're using an SDR BT2020 calibration for all content. This means that unless you need your iris fully open even for SDR content, you are most likely sacrificing black floor / contrast in SDR rec-709 to privilege brightness in HDR, running all with the iris fully open and using the P3 filter to get a wide gamut. In that case, assuming your two 3D LUTs use this same BT2020 baseline, madVR can switch between each LUT automatically. If you don't want to use the LUT anymore, simply specify "this display is already calibrated to"in the calibration tab, and specify SDR BT2020 and whichever gamma you've used in your calibration (usually 2.4, but it can be anything, as long as your target for the 3D LUT is 2.2 if you're using one for HDR tonemapping, though in that case it's recommended to target P3 rather than BT2020 to avoid posterization). madVR will automatically convert rec-709 content so that it displays correctly with your BT2020 calibration. There is no need for profiles.

2) You're using an SDR Rec709 calibration for all content. This means that you are most likey sacrificing brightness and gamut cover in HDR in order to maximise black floor / native contrast, not using the filter (unless you can't reach 709 wihtout it) and closing the iris further to reach 50/60nits in sdr rec-709 (or brighter if you don't have a dedicated room). If you don't need the 3D LUTs anymore, you simply specify "this display is already calibrated to" and you specify rec-709 and whichever gamma the display is actually calibrated. MadVR will automatically tonemap BT2020 content to fit into your rec-709 calibration. There is no need for profiles.

3) You don't want to compromise either content type, so you have two calibrations on the JVC (rec-709, no filter, iris closed to get best black floor / native contrast and around 50-60nits peak) and SDR BT2020 (2020, P3 filter, iris open to get the highest peak brightness, hence headroom for HDR highlights, at the cost of a higher black floor / reduced native contrast). You will need profiles to tell madVR which calibration you're using for each content type. If you're not using 3D LUTs, you can specify "this display is already calibrated" to either rec-709 or BT2020 using a different profile for each content. In that case, you can either switch manually between the two calibrations on the JVC, or if you have an nVidia GPU and a Vertex/Maestro/Diva you can select the "report BT2020" box in the calibration tab for your BT2020 profile, and make sure it's unchecked in your rec-709 profile. The HD fury device will detect if the content is rec-709 or BT2020 according to the flag, and provided you have installed an rs-232 cable and programmed the device accordingly, it will select the correct calibration automatically, according to content. MadVR will select the correct profile according to content, and will know which calibration you're using thanks to each profile. See here for more info: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post55408090

There are other ways to achieve this using batch files instead of an HD Fury device but they are even more complicated and don't work reliably in my experience.
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Last edited by Manni; 28th January 2020 at 12:34.
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Old 28th January 2020, 16:41   #58452  |  Link
Wilmar
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Hi everyone!
I asked a question about not working HDR some time ago but it seems to got buried under the discussion above, so I decided to up it
Hereís the issue:
I canít make HDR work properly with madVR and PotPlayer + 4K HDR-capable TV.
I enabled HDR in madVR settings Ė screenshot.
My MadVR settings config is here.
The TV says itís getting HDR image. However, the colours donít look HDR at all. Moreover, when played via the TV directly, the video looks properly. But playing it via the PC results in faded, dull and dark image.
I tried enabling and disabling Windows HDR Ė to no avail.
Hereís what PotPlayer says about the video with Windows HDR enabled and disabled respectively.
No Windows HDR
Windows HDR

My configuration:
Windows 10 64 bit 1903
Nvidia Geforce 1080Ti (Driver ver. 441.87)
MadVR ver. 0.92.17
PotPlayer 1.7.18346

clsid suggested that I disable the internal video decoder and video processor in Potplayer and use LAV Video decoder. However, I already use it as seen on the screenshots:
https://i.imgur.com/HZOJZpJ.png
https://i.imgur.com/1MmvsgE.png
My exported Potplayer settings are here.

Am I doing something wrong?
Thanks.
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Old 28th January 2020, 18:12   #58453  |  Link
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Hi in beta 113 tone mapping what is the different between peak luminance and Dynamic target nits, just wondering what the best settings should be for my 400 nit OLED for both of these to maximise bright small objects in HDR movies, I know they are not going to be super bright but when I recently watched the EXPANSE in HDR on Amazon it looked way better than any movie i've watched through MADVR. I know I cant do an A-B test for this material but I'd like to know what the best settings should be.
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Old 28th January 2020, 22:50   #58454  |  Link
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Your real display nits should be set to 400. Dynamic target is NOT what people seem to be thinking it is. I would start at 75 and if you find that too dark/not to your liking, drop it to 50. I have mine set to like 150 or something crazy right now. It's personal taste on that particular setting...
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Old 28th January 2020, 23:17   #58455  |  Link
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thanks.

I tried 50, 75, 100, 150 and 400, i genuinly could see no difference. you said if 75 is too dark drop it to 50, does this mean the lower the value the bright the highlights, what exactly is this doing?

edit: ok i see it now, I had to go to either extreme to really see the difference though, I compared 0 to 500, 500 being much duller more like SDR.

if you have an OLED, surely you want the brightest image possible, surely you'd set this at 0?

edit 2: ok so the lower it is the more highligh detail you loose, theres a balance you have to find, i settled on 25 believe it or not
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Last edited by mclingo; 28th January 2020 at 23:41.
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Old 29th January 2020, 00:35   #58456  |  Link
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Yea, exactly what you said, you lose detail so it's a matter of preference to find the balance you're looking for. Fun game isn't it?
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Old 29th January 2020, 14:12   #58457  |  Link
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Indeed, I spent last nigt runing through some 4k demos and movies with my new settings, never looked so good, to think i'd been languishing with dim HDR performance for so long thinking my TV was pants , this doesnt say much for LG's own tone mapping though as MADVR now looks loads better the passthrough HDR, well happy with the results.
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Old 29th January 2020, 18:05   #58458  |  Link
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LG's DTM is an acquired taste. One that sadly I never acquired. LOL I VASTLY prefer madvr's tone mapping to LG's. We can't get rid of LG's entirely on our OLED's, but, we can limit its impact by tone mapping to 700 nits or less (or in your case 400). The work that's been done is tremendous.
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Old 31st January 2020, 06:34   #58459  |  Link
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Anyone with AMD 5700XT with working HDR? in Movie Games and Youtube/Chrome 4K HDR? I have the 1080GTX now and there are no issues. but will I will change gpu for FPS improvement.

Because someone said there is an issue with 5700XT HDR and VEGA IIV or something works fine. I am waiting for the big Navi, I hope there won't be issues.
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Old 31st January 2020, 10:40   #58460  |  Link
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Big Navi isn't expected anytime soon...? I thought like summertime?
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