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Old 11th September 2009, 17:34   #5141  |  Link
jdobbs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Furiousflea View Post
Thanks for the lengthy explanation of the terms and information I wasn't really looking back to see if my issue was the same as other peoples. I am aware of there being 2 issues here (mine and the other peoples).

I have personally experienced that "jitter" after running a concert dvd through BDRB when keeping video interlaced to retain that smooth motion of video = you then get the crazy jittering.

However my issue isn't related to that, I am solely talking about extras such as "making of" documentaries that are typically 480\60i. That is to say as I'm sure you are aware that 60 frames per second are generated from the interlaced stream.

This is the effect of creating a live action smooth movement as you would see on modern soap operas\news\sport programs.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying you are incorrect about anything, you obviously have a far greater understanding of the workings of this stuff than me. But I can categorically say that the only way to retain that "live action look" is to keep the source interlaced as it is on the original. When you de-interlace you are halving the frame rate to 29.97fps which can cause some juddering on this "making of" type films. Having the knock on effect of in say "The Matrix" making of documentary making the behind the scense material looking like film material.

Just to give one final example, if you download say an episode of your favourite soap that is shot on video from a torrent site (just for arguments sake) these groups always release their video in progressive format so when you watch it the video has a "film" look to it.

You know like the difference between "live action\film"...

I would like to retain that live action look if at all possible. Sorry for my ramblings and likely repeating myself
I just did a comparison with KEEP_INTERLACING=1 and the default in BD-RB with a 1080i source. You definitely can see the combing on the edges when you use KEEP_INTERLACING and there is horizontal movement. But it is encoded correctly, I checked all settings in the MPLS, CLPI, etc.. and it's was done right. I have to assume it's just the nature of interlaced output to a modern TV -- either that or X264 isn't truely outputting as interlaced, and I don't think that's likely.

BUT... when I turned KEEP_INTERLACING off (the BD-RB default) -- I ended up with a beautiful 1080p picture that had nice smooth edges during horizontal movement...

I didn't look inside the M2TS for flags, but I have to assume X264 is encoding it correctly.

So the bottom line is -- I don't see anything to fix on the KEEP_INTERLACING=1 side.

One think I could do (and probably will), is still do the deinterlacing within AVISYNTH to clean up the edges but keep the output as 1080i so it matches the original...

I'm going to see if selecting movie-only makes a difference...
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Last edited by jdobbs; 11th September 2009 at 18:40.
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Old 11th September 2009, 17:49   #5142  |  Link
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Sorry, I have not been able to follow the development of the program and wanted to know if any improvements have been made to 24f playability on Panasonic players (in BD25 Movie only mode) and also to more exact output size (undersized and sometimes oversized files were output before). Thank you in advance.
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Old 11th September 2009, 18:19   #5143  |  Link
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Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
I can tell you that when played back on my Sony 50" 1080p monitor from my Sony S360 BD player, a source that is 1080i looks better when I encode with the BD-RB default than when "KEEP_INTERLACING" is enabled (smoother edges) just because LCDs don't like interlaced output very much. If you have a CRT based HDTV that may not be the case (I can't really say because I just don't know -- I don't think phospher persistency is an issue anymore in modern sets).
jdobbs......., doesn't the deinterlace happen in the player?

And isn't that the preferred method since the player would have MUCH more video "horsepower" than a screen would?

On the Oppo, it does the deinterlace & then outputs 1080p or 108p/24 to the screen. In the setup menu, I can select the following deinterlace modes:

Auto (that's where I leave it, 'cause 1080p & original "i" looks GREAT)
Film Bias Mode
Video Bias Mode
2:2 Odd
2:2 Even

Couldn't tell you what each of those are supposed to do, but I tried all those with the bum 1080i RB's & didn't see any real diff. I'd suspect, it's because the source is FUBAR up & can't be "saved".
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Old 11th September 2009, 18:32   #5144  |  Link
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Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
BUT... when I turned KEEP_INTERLACING off (the BD-RB default) -- I ended up with a beautiful 1080p picture that had nice smooth edges during horizontal movement...
Where are you reading this "1080p" picture info. When you say "1080p", you mean 1080p/24?

Referring to my "poster child" 1080i RB done at "default", if I bring up the Oppo "on screen info", it says "AVC BDMV 29.97fps 16:9".

I can't believe the Oppo would LIE to me! Or maybe, something in the RB is "confusing" it, telling it to deinterlace when it shouldn't???
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Old 11th September 2009, 19:21   #5145  |  Link
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Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
I just did a comparison with KEEP_INTERLACING=1 and the default in BD-RB with a 1080i source. You definitely can see the combing on the edges when you use KEEP_INTERLACING and there is horizontal movement. But it is encoded correctly, I checked all settings in the MPLS, CLPI, etc.. and it's was done right. I have to assume it's just the nature of interlaced output to a modern TV -- either that or X264 isn't truely outputting as interlaced, and I don't think that's likely.

BUT... when I turned KEEP_INTERLACING off (the BD-RB default) -- I ended up with a beautiful 1080p picture that had nice smooth edges during horizontal movement...

I didn't look inside the M2TS for flags, but I have to assume X264 is encoding it correctly.

So the bottom line is -- I don't see anything to fix on the KEEP_INTERLACING=1 side.

One think I could do (and probably will), is still do the deinterlacing within AVISYNTH to clean up the edges but keep the output as 1080i so it matches the original...

I'm going to see if selecting movie-only makes a difference...
Okey dokey, thanx for looking into that. If I may be so cheeky, if you do have "The Matrix" (or any of the trilogy I would assume since they were released with matching extras) would you be so kind as to have a look at the main making of documentary with\without with "KEEP_INTERLACIN=1".

If you could then go to a bit that is live action behind the scenes and tell me if you can see the film look you get as you would in a main movie Vs how it looks on the original.

I guess there really is no way around it then, but I'm greatful for you having a good look at it as you have.

Cheers, Rob
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Old 11th September 2009, 19:22   #5146  |  Link
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Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
I was able to repeat the demuxing issue on Black Hawk Down with the Region A disc. It a TSMUXER issue, though, and I'm not sure I can do anything about it.
This sequence works for me:
1. demux the .m2ts with TSMUXER
2. re-size and re-encode the video
3. resize the original .sup from 1. using Sup2Sub.jar
4. remux 2. and 3. with TSMUXER

Perhaps you may want to include Sup2Sub in the Tools.
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Old 11th September 2009, 22:00   #5147  |  Link
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Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
I just did a comparison with KEEP_INTERLACING=1 and the default in BD-RB with a 1080i source. You definitely can see the combing on the edges when you use KEEP_INTERLACING and there is horizontal movement. But it is encoded correctly, I checked all settings in the MPLS, CLPI, etc.. and it's was done right.
When you see combing on interlaced encoded material then your playback filter/software isn't properly deinterlacing the interlaced material. There are several 'methods' to deinterlace the picture for a progressive screen playback. Not all of them 'reveal' field order issues. The issue I was talking about looks like that:

http://www.100fps.com/wrongfieldorder.avi
(taken from http://www.climaxtek.com/Faq/Deinterlacing.htm)

As I said, I encode interlaced material with the keep_interlacing=1 function (reason I mentioned earlier) and the output looks just like that on my standalone player as well as proper playback software like 'powerdvd 9' (deinterlacing is set to hardware).
I remember using mpeg2 encoding it was even possible to change the field order interpretation 'after' the encoding with a bitstream modifier (like pulldown.exe, restream or whatever) but I doubt that's possible with mpeg4 derivates.

Last edited by Aratar; 11th September 2009 at 22:04.
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Old 11th September 2009, 22:34   #5148  |  Link
jdobbs
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Originally Posted by Race Guy View Post
Where are you reading this "1080p" picture info. When you say "1080p", you mean 1080p/24?

Referring to my "poster child" 1080i RB done at "default", if I bring up the Oppo "on screen info", it says "AVC BDMV 29.97fps 16:9".

I can't believe the Oppo would LIE to me! Or maybe, something in the RB is "confusing" it, telling it to deinterlace when it shouldn't???
You make a good point. The answer is "No." And that's an issue I have to fix for the next version. Even though every player I know of will play 1080p/29.97 -- it isn't in the BD standard.
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Old 11th September 2009, 22:36   #5149  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Furiousflea View Post
Okey dokey, thanx for looking into that. If I may be so cheeky, if you do have "The Matrix" (or any of the trilogy I would assume since they were released with matching extras) would you be so kind as to have a look at the main making of documentary with\without with "KEEP_INTERLACIN=1".

If you could then go to a bit that is live action behind the scenes and tell me if you can see the film look you get as you would in a main movie Vs how it looks on the original.

I guess there really is no way around it then, but I'm greatful for you having a good look at it as you have.

Cheers, Rob
I have "The Matrix" but not the others (yet). I'll test it.
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Old 11th September 2009, 22:38   #5150  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Nkotok View Post
Sorry, I have not been able to follow the development of the program and wanted to know if any improvements have been made to 24f playability on Panasonic players (in BD25 Movie only mode) and also to more exact output size (undersized and sometimes oversized files were output before). Thank you in advance.
I can only say the my encodes are almost always exactly what I expect unless single-pass CRF is selected. I can't speak for others. I can say that most of the "sizing issues" I've heard of are against "tweaked" originals or "tweaked" processing. I can't address those.
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Old 11th September 2009, 22:41   #5151  |  Link
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Originally Posted by PurpleMan View Post
jdobbs:

I noticed that if I open 00000.m2ts (main movie) on the original batman begins disc using tsmuxergui all the audio tracks are flagged with timeshift=125ms. On the backup I made using BD-RB the 00000.m2ts does not have that flag. Is that on purpose?

I mean, is BD-RB compensating for the timeshift?
@PurpleMan;
I commented on this to you back on 8-22-08, post #4725 (page 237)

Quote:
I am curious, if you burn your backup to BD-R/RE media and play it back on a standalone, does the movie have the audio in sync?
Mine was off by 250ms, very noticeable and not enjoyable to watch. It took some adjusting to finally get the audio in sync, but the backup looks great!
My region A original Batman Begins shows 83ms audio delay for all audio tracks. I and others (Furiousflea at least) have also reported this issue.
I was only able to get the audio in sync by doing a manual backup of 00000.m2ts by command line with the meta file from BD-RB, inserting timeshift = 250 in that meta file, rebuilding that 00000.m2ts file individually, and substituting it in place of the BD-RB version upon rebuild. ( 83ms did not correctly fix the async)
Tedious, yes, but the backup plays in sync now. ( I can be determined at times )
I reported this way back, and at that time seems like one of those rare discs that are troublesome. But timing is everything. I did not want to present jdobbs with an issue that is rare and not highly reported as a bug. ( not sure it is)
I believe jdobbs reported that audio delays are corrected with BD-RB, but not sure when. It would not have mattered with this disc anyway, since the actual 83ms delay was not enough to correct the async anyway.

Last edited by Capsbackup; 11th September 2009 at 22:44.
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Old 11th September 2009, 22:53   #5152  |  Link
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Another thing:

you can find out about the field order by evaluating movement using the avisynth command:

DirectshowSource("00xxx.m2ts", fps=29.97, framecount=10328, audio=false)
AssumeBFF().SeparateFields() <-- BFF if movement is fluent
#AssumeTFF().SeperateFields() <-- TFF if movement is fluent
ConvertToYV12()

as well as swap the field order for encoding with

SwapFields()

so I guess there'd be no need for a patched x264 version.
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Old 11th September 2009, 23:32   #5153  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Aratar View Post
Another thing:

you can find out about the field order by evaluating movement using the avisynth command:

DirectshowSource("00xxx.m2ts", fps=29.97, framecount=10328, audio=false)
AssumeBFF().SeparateFields() <-- BFF if movement is fluent
#AssumeTFF().SeperateFields() <-- TFF if movement is fluent
ConvertToYV12()

as well as swap the field order for encoding with

SwapFields()

so I guess there'd be no need for a patched x264 version.
Uhhh... and I'm supposed to make a program do that how???? Or were you suggesting that I put a person in the BD-RB zip file for distribution to look at the output?

Also, doing what you are suggesting would make it playback correctly on an output device. But it gets frame-served to the encoder, and if an encoder will only do one type (e.g. TFF) or it has nothing telling it that the field order and it is getting fed frames for encoding, this won't do a thing. This first example doesn't change the position of the lines in the frame in any way. Swapfields actually will change the fields assuming you know when it is wrong -- but they are now out of position (line 2 is now above line 1, etc.) and what do you do when you have hybrid streams or changing field orders?

[Edit] By the way -- I have no idea how X264 detects or outputs interlaced field order, so please don't quote me as saying it does it one way or the other.
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Old 11th September 2009, 23:40   #5154  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Aratar View Post
When you see combing on interlaced encoded material then your playback filter/software isn't properly deinterlacing the interlaced material. There are several 'methods' to deinterlace the picture for a progressive screen playback. Not all of them 'reveal' field order issues. The issue I was talking about looks like that:

http://www.100fps.com/wrongfieldorder.avi
(taken from http://www.climaxtek.com/Faq/Deinterlacing.htm)

As I said, I encode interlaced material with the keep_interlacing=1 function (reason I mentioned earlier) and the output looks just like that on my standalone player as well as proper playback software like 'powerdvd 9' (deinterlacing is set to hardware).
I remember using mpeg2 encoding it was even possible to change the field order interpretation 'after' the encoding with a bitstream modifier (like pulldown.exe, restream or whatever) but I doubt that's possible with mpeg4 derivates.
You can change the field order to what you want by shifting up or down one line. That's how CCE does it with its MPEG encoding. You can't change the order after encoding (pulldown.exe isn't related to that in any way, it works to change a framerate by using RFF/TFF flags to insert pseudoframes).

As I've said (several times now) the problem isn't in the changing of field order-- it is in the detection of field order. Just because a stream starts with one field order, there is no guarantee it stays that way. In fact you will find sources that also embed progressive content with pulldown in random places throughout the stream. I am trying to avoid having to do a 40GB scan of every source... I can do that very easily and simply by decombing the source. Which (surprise, surprise) is exactly what the default setting already does.

You're suggesting manual interface solutions as a solution and are making the assumption that since you can look at a screen and say "that doesn't look right" it should be easy to program the same. That very definitely isn't the case.
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Old 11th September 2009, 23:49   #5155  |  Link
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To all,

Enough on this interlacing subject. I appreciate the help, but I understand very well how all this all works. I'll work on it and do it the way I think is best. No more suggestions... let's please get back to bug reports.
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Old 11th September 2009, 23:52   #5156  |  Link
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@PurpleMan;
I commented on this to you back on 8-22-08, post #4725 (page 237)


My region A original Batman Begins shows 83ms audio delay for all audio tracks. I and others (Furiousflea at least) have also reported this issue.
I was only able to get the audio in sync by doing a manual backup of 00000.m2ts by command line with the meta file from BD-RB, inserting timeshift = 250 in that meta file, rebuilding that 00000.m2ts file individually, and substituting it in place of the BD-RB version upon rebuild. ( 83ms did not correctly fix the async)
Tedious, yes, but the backup plays in sync now. ( I can be determined at times )
I reported this way back, and at that time seems like one of those rare discs that are troublesome. But timing is everything. I did not want to present jdobbs with an issue that is rare and not highly reported as a bug. ( not sure it is)
I believe jdobbs reported that audio delays are corrected with BD-RB, but not sure when. It would not have mattered with this disc anyway, since the actual 83ms delay was not enough to correct the async anyway.
You are mistaken, the only audio track with a 83ms delay is the secondary audio for the PiP. the rest of the tracks have a 125ms delay, and as far as I can tell when I delay the audio of my backup for 125ms it puts the movie in sync.
I might be wrong tho. Either way, this is an issue that needs to be addressed, so I think it's best we'll let jdobbs have a look at it, as he has the disc himself.
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Old 12th September 2009, 00:16   #5157  |  Link
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Okey dokey, thanx for looking into that. If I may be so cheeky, if you do have "The Matrix" (or any of the trilogy I would assume since they were released with matching extras) would you be so kind as to have a look at the main making of documentary with\without with "KEEP_INTERLACIN=1".

If you could then go to a bit that is live action behind the scenes and tell me if you can see the film look you get as you would in a main movie Vs how it looks on the original.

I guess there really is no way around it then, but I'm greatful for you having a good look at it as you have.

Cheers, Rob
There's always a way around it, even if we don't yet know what it is yet... which (of the many) videos are you referencing? They all look like "making of" to me. If you know the M2TS, that would make it a lot easier.
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Old 12th September 2009, 00:35   #5158  |  Link
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Hey jdobbs,

Been a long time user of dvd rebuilder .. trying the br version
I tried with The Shawshank Redemption movie only and i got this .. it seems it's the famous error.
I am runing on Windows 7.
Maybe it's the cause of the problem?
Thanks

[00:20:14] PHASE ONE, Encoding
- [00:20:14] Extracting A/V streams [VID_00002]
- [00:30:52] Reencoding: VID_00002 (1 of 1)
- [00:30:52] Collecting video information
- Video: 1920x1080, 23,976fps, 205.076 frames
- Bitrate: 6.431 Kbs
- [00:30:52] Reencoding: VID_00002, Pass 1 of 2
- [00:31:53] GUI issue, no hWnd returned.
- Encode failed. Retrying.
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Old 12th September 2009, 01:10   #5159  |  Link
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Originally Posted by PurpleMan View Post
You are mistaken, the only audio track with a 83ms delay is the secondary audio for the PiP. the rest of the tracks have a 125ms delay, and as far as I can tell when I delay the audio of my backup for 125ms it puts the movie in sync.
I might be wrong tho. Either way, this is an issue that needs to be addressed, so I think it's best we'll let jdobbs have a look at it, as he has the disc himself.
My Region A version is 83ms for ALL audio tracks. If yours is region A, then this will prove interesting!
I exhausted myself on this disc, and 83ms did not correct the async for me.
I agree that if jdobbs can address/confirm that any and all audio delays are corrected by BD-RB, this would be welcome.
As a side note, my BD-RB backup, if viewing the .m2ts file or the .mpls file, shows 0ms delay. The original .m2ts and .mpls files show the 83ms delay. If BD-RB does correct this delay, I am curious when and where. For most of my backups, I select do not reencode audio files, and keep HD audio for BD-25 backups. Thus the original audio file is kept. So where is the audio delay being corrected if not the .mpls, maybe the clpi?
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Old 12th September 2009, 01:23   #5160  |  Link
jdobbs
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Originally Posted by gandalf027 View Post
Hey jdobbs,

Been a long time user of dvd rebuilder .. trying the br version
I tried with The Shawshank Redemption movie only and i got this .. it seems it's the famous error.
I am runing on Windows 7.
Maybe it's the cause of the problem?
Thanks

[00:20:14] PHASE ONE, Encoding
- [00:20:14] Extracting A/V streams [VID_00002]
- [00:30:52] Reencoding: VID_00002 (1 of 1)
- [00:30:52] Collecting video information
- Video: 1920x1080, 23,976fps, 205.076 frames
- Bitrate: 6.431 Kbs
- [00:30:52] Reencoding: VID_00002, Pass 1 of 2
- [00:31:53] GUI issue, no hWnd returned.
- Encode failed. Retrying.
What version are you using? I have to assume it's not that latest since that error is fixed now. I also noticed that you've stripped it from your post of the log.
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