Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 2nd July 2022, 11:05   #63261  |  Link
SuperLumberjack
French Registered User
 
SuperLumberjack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: France
Posts: 333
Hi !

I have a problem with MadVR, I think since at least 3 months, but I didn't notice it because I didn't watch lots of movies with my computer these last months (I watch lots of things on Amazon Prime Video).

I almost sure that the problem came with the last versions of the Nvidia drivers. It's always getting worse...

In fact, I have dropped frames when I display a movie at 23,976 or 24 Hz. I haven't when I stay with 60 Hz.

But when I use D3D 11 with MadVR, the dropped frames are not showed in the statistics, only when I use D3D 9.

I only have this with MadVR, not with EVR Custom Pres. for example.

I tried to disable LAV Video and use the internal filter of MPC-BE instead, tried to disable the A/V sync, but the problem stays the same.

You can see it in this video: https://mega.nz/file/7pNGySpZ#kr3JRZ...r7Ki0uKm-lCcpU

Strangely, when I tried to record the problem with ShadowPlay or OBS, it looks smooth as you can see in the 1st part of the video Maybe a problem of vsync...

But in fact, I have stuttering like in the 2nd part of the video. And with D3D 9 in MadVR, sometimes I have black frames which are appearing repeatedly (not as long that in my record) or just dropped frames.

I would like to install an older version of my Nvidia drivers, but the problem is the automatic updates of GeForce Experience and the drivers that I can't disable. Thanks Nvidia...!

Thank you for your help please !
SuperLumberjack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2022, 13:02   #63262  |  Link
SuperLumberjack
French Registered User
 
SuperLumberjack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: France
Posts: 333
The problem is solved!

I had to enable the vsync manually in the Nvidia control pannel. It's stable now.

But it's strange that I have to do this from one day to another...

Damn Nvidia!
SuperLumberjack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2022, 13:10   #63263  |  Link
flossy_cake
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 605
I noticed that ticking the setting "scale chroma separately, if it saves performance" is saving me 40 watts on 4k60HDR video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
I prefer non-color dithering and not changing every frame. It is completely imperceptible to me. Changing every frame makes it more noticeable.
Changing it per frame should reduce the visibility of noise, kind of like how flashing a pixel black and white fast enough should start to appear as grey, I think it's called temporal integration or something.

My favourite dithering algo is from CeeJay's SweetFX (part of ReShade) which does randomised noise added to green and subtracted from red and blue:




Last edited by flossy_cake; 2nd July 2022 at 13:31.
flossy_cake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2022, 16:39   #63264  |  Link
Alexkral
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
To me this has a look of a higher dynamic range, and almost like a "veil" is lifted.
Yes, this clearly looks better. I get the same result on my lcd display by setting the DPL below the real peak nits, AND using the original BT.2390 roll-off.

I made some shaders some time ago to be able to do this, since madVR uses the DisplayCAL roll-off. I'll be sharing them at some point when I have time to work on them a bit and do some tests, but I've been so lazy lately and interested in other things, that I don't even remember how some things worked. Now I'm interested in adding other options (BT.2446), so I hope that this will motivate me to return to the subject.

With the DisplayCAL roll-off, you have to set the DPL much lower to get the same brightness in the highlights, so as you've noticed, the result is more compressed, flat and lacking in contrast. And it has other drawbacks too, like color tints in whites.

With the original roll-off the only drawback in comparison is the loss of detail in the very bright highlights, but I can live perfectly well with that.
__________________
AviSynth AiUpscale
Alexkral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2022, 19:19   #63265  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 4,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by flossy_cake View Post
Changing it per frame should reduce the visibility of noise, kind of like how flashing a pixel black and white fast enough should start to appear as grey, I think it's called temporal integration or something.
Try it yourself. The dithering noise is much more obvious when set to change every frame.

Moving noise is more obvious than static noise. Humans are very sensitive to motion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flossy_cake View Post
My favourite dithering algo is from CeeJay's SweetFX (part of ReShade) which does randomised noise added to green and subtracted from red and blue:
That is how madVR's random dithering algorithm with colored dithering noise enabled works.
__________________
madVR options explained
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2022, 22:03   #63266  |  Link
flossy_cake
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 605
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Try it yourself. The dithering noise is much more obvious when set to change every frame.

Moving noise is more obvious than static noise. Humans are very sensitive to motion.

That is how madVR's random dithering algorithm with colored dithering noise enabled works.
That's weird cause I've implemented CeeJay's algo into my own temporal dithering shader for my calibration tools app where those screenshots are taken, and I can toggle between temporal and static in real time and view the results, and also play around with frame rate limter RTSS to see how many fps needed for temporal to become invisible. Same observation when toggling between static/temporal dithering in the NVidia driver.

edit: just checked MadVR on an AVSHD709 gradient ramp with it set to Random Dithering, "use colored noise" and toggling "change dither for every frame" and cannot observe a difference. Maybe your monitor uses its own temporal dithering which is somehow clashing/interacting with it? Maybe the slower pixel response time of LCD makes the patterns blur together or something?

edit: here is the gradient ramp test pattern. When I turn off dithering in MadVR I get obvious banding so it's definitely working, I just can't see any diff between temporal or static.

edit: well the description "hides dither patterns, but subjectively increases noise" doesn't make sense to me since hiding the dither pattern is what reduces noise.

edit: speculation: maybe it's because the temporal dithering is animated at the monitor refresh rate, so if you're in 24hz display mode then you would only get 24fps dithering which I'm looking at now using RTSS to cap at 24fps and yes I can see it is slightly noisier with my nose up to the screen but still not as noisy as static at the same strength. Maybe OLED's instant pixel response makes temporal look even noisier? From memory I could see static dither patterns in the dark tones when I used to have Panasonic OLED and I was wondering why they didn't use temporal, maybe that's why?

Last edited by flossy_cake; 2nd July 2022 at 22:34.
flossy_cake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2022, 21:59   #63267  |  Link
Sunspark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 467
I am the same as Asmodian for dithering. I also like coloured off and change frame off. I just use ordered. The extra power of error diffusion doesn't seem worth it on my hardware and random is noisier.
Sunspark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2022, 05:22   #63268  |  Link
flossy_cake
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 605
flossy_cake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2022, 20:41   #63269  |  Link
Hellfire1985
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 2
some opinions

Hi everyone! ive been a member now since 2016 and have been using Madvr for a bit longer than that. i haven't posted one post and i am by far a not an expert but i thought i would share some things that have helped me to get more performance out of my windows 10 pc.

I have found a program called Wtools by WagnardSoft (im not connected with this developer in anyway) and it has a feature to turn on called "Message Signal Interrupt" (Nvidia cards only) which i have found has dropped my rendering times down a fair bit. does anyone know much about this? i have only read that it has something to do with the I/O of the graphics card so it doesn't have to compete with other components??? but any information about this would help and hopefully this could help someone else to get more out of their GPU!?!?

I have also turned off Hardware-accelerated GPU scaling in Windows 10 as well as a few other things, i would like to know if there are any other tweaks that anyone knows of to boost it more? other than the standard Nvidia control panel tweaks? I haven't seen many posts about tweaks so I thought to myself you can only ask the question!

Also too, i have a awesome but old 1080p RGBY 70 inch Sharp Aquos TV that i brought in 2012 which has a great picture and colours and im trying to keep it for as long as i can so i am using 4x DSR to upscale to 4k then downscale to 1080p with Nvidia control panel options either off, application controlled or running the least amount of filtering possible, which does make everything look alot better than it is without using DSR, i noticed that there really is much information in the way of using DSR so any thoughts or suggestions on my setup would be appreciated?

I am running a 3900x @4.5Ghz, x570 Aurous pro wifi, 16gb 3600mhz 16-16-16-32 CR1 @XMP, Gigabyte Xtreme Gaming GTX-1080 @2100mhz all OC's completely stable and cool with zero stuttering

Thank you in advance!

Last edited by Hellfire1985; 4th July 2022 at 22:21. Reason: Completely didn't read what i had wrote, please forgive me?
Hellfire1985 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2022, 21:51   #63270  |  Link
Hellfire1985
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 2
I forgot to ask

Continuing on from my previous post.

As i stated my Sharp TV is RGBY not just the standard RGB, i know it is only adding a yellow sub-pixel but if anyone knows how that works in a display and also would it, if any have an effect on the RGB conversion or anything in Madvr?

My tv also has a option for wide colour gammit and i do use it because when i turn it off the colours wash out, yet windows 10 can tell when a display has WGC but the TV doesn't show up as WCG, so im thinking the TV is too old for Windows 10 to recognize the option.

What doesn't help that Sharp didn't provide many of the TV's spec's not even in the the owners manual, could anyone please help me with giving me more information about this TV?
It is a Sharp Aquos LC70LE735X

Last edited by Hellfire1985; 4th July 2022 at 22:14. Reason: I have a nack for leaving things out! it's a gift ;)
Hellfire1985 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2022, 21:57   #63271  |  Link
Sunspark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 467
I find that ordered not coloured is a tiny bit warmer, you can see that in the 4th stripe from the right.

I also imagine having change pattern every frame off also makes it less noisy. You can see the difference with it on and off if you define your display as 2-4 bit there.

This pairs well with Mitchell-Netravali AR. Has a creamier cinematic tone. With coloured noise on, it feels heavier.

Very subjective I know.
Sunspark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2022, 22:28   #63272  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
[QUOTE=Hellfire1985;1971247]Hi everyone! ive been a member now since 2016 and have been using Madvr for a bit longer than that. i haven't posted one post and i am by far a not an expert but i thought i would share some things that have helped me to get more performance out of my windows 10 pc.[ /quote]
i will only answer to madVR relate this because this is the madVR thread

Quote:
I have found a program called Wtools by WagnardSoft (im not connected with this developer in anyway) and it has a feature to turn on Message Signal Interrupt (Nvidia cards only) which i have found has dropped my rendering times down a fair bit. does anyone know much about this? i have only read that it has something to do with the I/O of the graphics card so it doesn't have to compete with other components??? but any information would help and hopefully this could help someone else to get more out of their GPU!?!?
it supposed to be used by the 3000 series by default.
so there is something behind it why it isn't used on other card do it at your own risk.

Quote:
I have also turned off Hardware-accelerated GPU scaling as well as a few other things, i would like to know if there are any other tweaks that anyone knows of to boost it more other than the standard Nvidia control panel tweaks? I haven't seen many posts about tweaks so I thought to myself you can only ask the question!
pretty sure madVR doesn't care about this.

Quote:
Also too, i have a awesome but old 1080p RGBY 70 inch Sharp Aquos TV that i brought in 2012 which has a great picture and colours and im trying to keep it for as long as i can so i am using 4x DSR to upscale to 4k then downscale to 1080p with nvidia control panel options either off, application controlled or running the least amount of filtering possible, which does make everything look better than without using DSR, i noticed that there really is much information in the way of using DSR so any thoughts or suggestions on my setup would be appreciated?
but why would you do that just supersample in madVR to do the same and you will also get proper downscaling not the one provided by nvidia which is not that good...

Quote:
As i stated my Sharp TV is RGBY not just the standard RGB, i know it is only adding a yellow sub-pixel but if anyone knows how that works in a display and also would it have any effect on Madvr?
i know exactly how that works there is no reason it would create an more accurate image. just pray it doesn't do anything bad.

Quote:
My tv also has a option for wide colour gammit and i do use it because when i turn it off the colours wash out, yet windows 10 can tell when a display has WGC but it does show up, so im thinking the TV is too old for Windows 10 to recognize the option.
because having a WCG doesn't mean it has a bt2020 designated WCG which windows is talking about.
having a WCG is a standard feature. it's not rare for a TV to loose gamut over the years maybe that's why it is washed out without it.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th July 2022, 08:09   #63273  |  Link
flossy_cake
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 605
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunspark View Post
I find that ordered not coloured is a tiny bit warmer, you can see that in the 4th stripe from the right.
If you inspect the pixel values in photoshop you will see all pixels are grey and there is no colour in the image. If it looks warm I can't explain that really, maybe it's due to some greyscale nonlinearity of your display causing the coloured dithering to be not quite as uniform as it should be.
flossy_cake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th July 2022, 12:08   #63274  |  Link
el Filou
Registered User
 
el Filou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 896
MSI lowers interrupt latencies but I doubt it has such a big effect on madVR. Anyway it can't be bad and you'll see immediately if it works or not, the device will have immediate big obvious problems if it doesn't.

I've tested hardware accelerated GPU scheduling with a 1050 Ti but I couldn't see any difference with madVR even though it's said that feature helps with lower end systems and I have an ancient CPU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellfire1985 View Post
My [Sharp Aquos LC70LE735X] also has a option for wide colour gammit and i do use it because when i turn it off the colours wash out. As i stated my Sharp TV is RGBY not just the standard RGB, i know it is only adding a yellow sub-pixel but if anyone knows how that works in a display and also would it, if any have an effect on the RGB conversion or anything in Madvr?
The only way to use a non-standard native gamut with madVR is this:
- set your TV gamut to native/widest
- profile it and create madVR-compatible 3DLUTs for it with a colourimeter for all the standard gamuts, and use the LUTs with madVR.
IMO the only way that TV's gamut is wider than BT.709 is in the yellows and maybe greens, but you would see very little difference in practice. Not worth the trouble for me.
__________________
HTPC: Windows 10 22H2, MediaPortal 1, LAV Filters/ReClock/madVR. DVB-C TV, Panasonic GT60, Denon 2310, Core 2 Duo E7400 oc'd, GeForce 1050 Ti 536.40
el Filou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th July 2022, 14:32   #63275  |  Link
SirMaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by 70MM View Post
SirMaster do you set your video card to RGB Full 8bit or 10bit?
I forgot to answer this part.

I use 8-bit as it just works overall more simply than 10-bit and on a projector with around 100 nit luminance range, 8 bits are plenty for smooth gradients, especially with madVR's high quality dithering.
SirMaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th July 2022, 20:00   #63276  |  Link
shaolin95
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 293
Hello guys.
Suddenly I have lost the extra settings from the Beta version. I tried downloading the latest full version then unpacking the latest beta on it as usual and clicked the install bat but when it finished I STILL only see a few option on the HDR section.
How can I fix this please?
Thanks
shaolin95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2022, 02:02   #63277  |  Link
Sunspark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by flossy_cake View Post
If you inspect the pixel values in photoshop you will see all pixels are grey and there is no colour in the image. If it looks warm I can't explain that really, maybe it's due to some greyscale nonlinearity of your display causing the coloured dithering to be not quite as uniform as it should be.
Not coloured is 81,81,81 in the stripe I pointed out as a good place to look, and coloured is 80,81,80 or variations of 80 with 81. So there is a luminance difference however small it might be.
Sunspark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2022, 16:50   #63278  |  Link
jkauff
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Akron, OH
Posts: 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaolin95 View Post
Hello guys.
Suddenly I have lost the extra settings from the Beta version. I tried downloading the latest full version then unpacking the latest beta on it as usual and clicked the install bat but when it finished I STILL only see a few option on the HDR section.
How can I fix this please?
Thanks
Try deleting the registry key (madshi) and your settings.bin file before you re-install.
jkauff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2022, 23:54   #63279  |  Link
djsolidsnake86
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 139
hello i have a little problem, i'm using madvr with mpc and lav filters, i was always using dxva2 copyback, now i switched to d3d11 because someone say that it use less energy on the vga/cpu (actually o have a 3060ti)
my problem is this: i use triggercmd with alexa for vocal commands on mpc (using ID commands and autohotkey), with d3d11 many times the vocal commands not work, or work in retard
anyone know why happen this? i have to switch back to dxva2?
djsolidsnake86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th July 2022, 00:55   #63280  |  Link
Sunspark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 467
You need to verify the power consumption on your own system. Different setups will function differently. GPU-Z is good for taking a look at the GPU power consumption in watts and GPU load %.

I think you might be the first person using Alexa to control this stuff, but if it works better in dxva2 mode then use that.

Test out software decoding "None" while you're at it to see if it works better with Alexa.
Sunspark is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:13.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.