madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted) - Page 2941

Braum · 3rd March 2020, 17:07

Is there any advantage to tonemap a HDR feed and output it in HDR compared to passthrough ? Because I don't really see any on my HDR monitor.

QBhd · 3rd March 2020, 17:23

It is subtle, but there is a nice improvement to the image quality on my OLED. Don't forget most "HDR" monitors only do a mediocre job of HDR.

QB

Braum · 3rd March 2020, 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by QBhd

It is subtle, but there is a nice improvement to the image quality on my OLED. Don't forget most "HDR" monitors only do a mediocre job of HDR.

QB

Indeed that might be it

I even tried tonemapping with a 3DLUT but it was nearly the same. I'm planning on getting the LG 55C9 soon.

Is 3DLUT calibration active in NV HDR ? I have a REC709 and a DCI-P3 3DLUT setup in madvr.

chros · 3rd March 2020, 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braum

Is 3DLUT calibration active in NV HDR ? I have a REC709 and a DCI-P3 3DLUT setup in madvr.

No, it isn't.

Braum · 3rd March 2020, 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by chros

No, it isn't.

So the 3DLUT tonemapping serve as a way to calibrate the display in NV HDR mode or is there no means of calibrating a display in HDR mode ?

chros · 3rd March 2020, 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braum

So the 3DLUT tonemapping serve as a way to calibrate the display in NV HDR mode or is there no means of calibrating a display in HDR mode ?

There's no way via madvr (yet?), you can only handle SDR content via madvr.

SamuriHL · 3rd March 2020, 18:59

What did you use for a real display nit value in madvr when outputting HDR? Ideally you should measure your display otherwise a "best guess" based on the specs is reasonable. That can impact quite a bit of what madvr is able to do.

mclingo · 3rd March 2020, 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braum

Is there any advantage to tonemap.

Hi, my TV is only just over 400 nits and so some of the bright highlight material get clipped when passed direct to TV, i've cited this good example before of how useful MADVR tone mapping is for me.

Harry potter, goblet of fire, about 2:09, the faces of the ghosts have almost zero detail on my TV, with tone mapping and highlight recovery it completely transforms the picture and all the detail comes back.

You should find though that if you already have a TV with 800+ nits you may not see any real benefit, especially some of the newer Panasonic and LG Tvs which already have very good tone mapping and tweak.

Best thing to do it just have a play with it.

tp4tissue · 4th March 2020, 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braum

So the 3DLUT tonemapping serve as a way to calibrate the display in NV HDR mode or is there no means of calibrating a display in HDR mode ?

To visually represent HDR and SDR content on a display that IS NOT a studio display, madver does Tonemapping and idealy also uses a 3DLUT

the 3DLut is a map for the display we own. Without which, madvr is making assumptions about the display, and it's a very rough approximation.

the Tonemapping is a fanangling of the image's dynamic range to meet the author's intent within the capability of our TVs @ home.

You can profile the Display in HDR mode, however, the way HDR currently works on most TVs is, the TV has its own tonemapping. This tonemapping is non-linear, and unpredictable to Madvr, That's why we don't recommend profiling in this mode in most cases. You CAN TRY to profile it, but the resultant 3DLut is a static map for a moving target.

SDR mode on most TVs is more predictable, because it was built that way, to scale predictably with luminance. HDR modes are not built the same way.

The confusion for most people is, "Am we still gets HDR in SDR mode"

The answer is YES, it's still HDR. The MAGIC of Madvr is that it brings HDR to even PRE-HDR standard TVS, because the Majority of TVs have greater than 100nits of brightness and some with larger gamut than the SDR standard.

10bit hdr mode vs 8bit sdr mode, Not important, Madvr's engine takes care of this mismatch better than the Tv's processor most of the time.

Gamut, You have to use a mode on the TV which utilizes the native or full gamut of the TV, on some tvs, the normal mode does this, but others require the vivid mode, or some other mode.

Peak Brightness: can be established through measurement, or guessing.

TV's native SDR Tone curve. This is idealy 2.2 pure power, that's what Madvr assumes the TV is using. It may not be the case. Many TVs use 2.4 or have options for other curves like bt1886. You want to select 2.2 if possible.

If you have a meter, you want the native gamut mode, with the RGB tone response calibrated to 2.2 pure power 0-255, via HCFR software. Then profile the display through displaycal to generate the 3DLut for Madvr.

Alexkral · 5th March 2020, 08:08

Actually, there is no way to know what is the proper way to correct the color when tone mapping, because there is not a linear relationship between both things. Even color appearance models fail in studies because they have not been developed for HDR. For example, the ICtCp color space that madVR uses, is perceptually uniform up to aproximately 500 nits, but anything beyond can be completely wrong.

So in the case of madVR/BT.2390 tone mapping, when the color is corrected following a linear relationship with the luminance compression, you end up with values that are very out of gamut (I'm talking about values of ±5 and more for a [0,1] range). These values need to be strongly mapped later within the gamut, which defeats the purpose of the logic that has been followed previously for the saturation correction (which was wrong anyway).

So don't expect a 3DLut to do any magic with the color of the highlights, because at this time it is not possible to know for sure how it should be represented in a lower dynamic range. Lately, some color appearance models have been developed for HDR, but the result also doesn't seem to be too convincing.

tp4tissue · 5th March 2020, 15:13

I didn't say 3DLut will give you total accuracy, 3DLut gives Madvr a MAP. WIthout which Madvr is completely blind.

Whatever future models come out, if you have a map, you can do the best calculations, without the map, it's all throwing darts again.

chros · 5th March 2020, 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

3DLut gives Madvr a MAP. WIthout which Madvr is completely blind.

This doesn't have to do anything what @Alexkral said.

mickeekung · 5th March 2020, 16:52

Did you already stop developing Madvr? No update for many months.

onekmilesbehind · 5th March 2020, 17:21

Please read through the thread a bit. People have erroneously proclaimed this many times already, but that's no excuse to continue the trend.

Read back a few pages and you'll find info. Searching is not hard and you're more likely to get responsive answers if it's evident you've already put in some footwork.

tp4tissue · 5th March 2020, 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by chros

This doesn't have to do anything what @Alexkral said.

Yes it does, akral is saying you can't directly map hdr using the tonemapping.

I'm saying, regardless of how we map, we still need a map. It's perfectly relevant.

SirMaster · 6th March 2020, 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickeekung

Did you already stop developing Madvr? No update for many months.

It's misleading.

madshi has put out a little over 113 updates to madVR since the official release you see on his website.

The most recent release was on Jan 20, 2020.

He has been working on bringing madVR to a dedicated hardware box a lot lately as well.

So no he did not stop and no signs of stopping.

gfxnow · 7th March 2020, 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirMaster

It's misleading.

madshi has put out a little over 113 updates to madVR since the official release you see on his website.

The most recent release was on Jan 20, 2020.

He has been working on bringing madVR to a dedicated hardware box a lot lately as well.

So no he did not stop and no signs of stopping.

Are there any builds with those updates?

huhn · 7th March 2020, 21:15

sure all 113 are builds here is 113:
http://madshi.net/madVRhdrMeasure113.zip

beware that these are test builds this one has a major know issues.

ryrynz · 7th March 2020, 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by gfxnow

Are there any builds with those updates?

As above. You didn't need to quote that entire post or any of it really, anyone can answer this. The link has been posted many times you could've found it by searching.

tp4tissue · 8th March 2020, 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by huhn

sure all 113 are builds here is 113:
http://madshi.net/madVRhdrMeasure113.zip

beware that these are test builds this one has a major know issues.

The broken smooth frame function? Pretty sure most users don't even know what that does.

3rd March 2020, 17:23	#58802 \| Link
QBhd QB the Slayer Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Toronto Posts: 697	It is subtle, but there is a nice improvement to the image quality on my OLED. Don't forget most "HDR" monitors only do a mediocre job of HDR. QB __________________

3rd March 2020, 18:59	#58807 \| Link
SamuriHL Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 5,351	What did you use for a real display nit value in madvr when outputting HDR? Ideally you should measure your display otherwise a "best guess" based on the specs is reasonable. That can impact quite a bit of what madvr is able to do. __________________ HTPC: Windows 11, AMD 5900X, RTX 3080, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG G2 77" OLED

5th March 2020, 15:13	#58811 \| Link
tp4tissue Registered User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 712	I didn't say 3DLut will give you total accuracy, 3DLut gives Madvr a MAP. WIthout which Madvr is completely blind. Whatever future models come out, if you have a map, you can do the best calculations, without the map, it's all throwing darts again. __________________ Ghetto \| 2500k 5Ghz

3rd March 2020, 17:07	#58801 \| Link
Braum Registered User Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 48	Is there any advantage to tonemap a HDR feed and output it in HDR compared to passthrough ? Because I don't really see any on my HDR monitor.

5th March 2020, 08:08	#58810 \| Link
Alexkral Registered User Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 324	Actually, there is no way to know what is the proper way to correct the color when tone mapping, because there is not a linear relationship between both things. Even color appearance models fail in studies because they have not been developed for HDR. For example, the ICtCp color space that madVR uses, is perceptually uniform up to aproximately 500 nits, but anything beyond can be completely wrong. So in the case of madVR/BT.2390 tone mapping, when the color is corrected following a linear relationship with the luminance compression, you end up with values that are very out of gamut (I'm talking about values of ±5 and more for a [0,1] range). These values need to be strongly mapped later within the gamut, which defeats the purpose of the logic that has been followed previously for the saturation correction (which was wrong anyway). So don't expect a 3DLut to do any magic with the color of the highlights, because at this time it is not possible to know for sure how it should be represented in a lower dynamic range. Lately, some color appearance models have been developed for HDR, but the result also doesn't seem to be too convincing.

5th March 2020, 16:52	#58813 \| Link
mickeekung Registered User Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 4	Did you already stop developing Madvr? No update for many months.

5th March 2020, 17:21	#58814 \| Link
onekmilesbehind Registered User Join Date: Mar 2019 Posts: 14	Please read through the thread a bit. People have erroneously proclaimed this many times already, but that's no excuse to continue the trend. Read back a few pages and you'll find info. Searching is not hard and you're more likely to get responsive answers if it's evident you've already put in some footwork.

7th March 2020, 21:15	#58818 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,925	sure all 113 are builds here is 113: http://madshi.net/madVRhdrMeasure113.zip beware that these are test builds this one has a major know issues.