Television issues and firmware bugs and buyers guide for your next TV

Klaus1189 · 24th February 2020, 18:04

Welcome,

I am interested in TV's and want to collect infos, known issues of certain firmwares and general drawbacks of certains TV's, like 3:2 pulldown for 23p/24p which results in judder.

I know rtings and they do a very nice job, but I think we should discuss it also here.

I want for example a new TV, with full 4:4:4 / RGB chroma support but also native refresh rate support for 23Hz / 24Hz without judder, but (!!) both at the same time.
Which manufacturers do support this?

I also created back in December testvideos which can detect 3:2 pulldown of your TV. You only need a camera with manual setting for exposure time. Set it to 1 second and take a photo. Best you use a tripod

So you can do a quick test of several different HDMI modes like PC mode, game mode ... .

There are for example TVs which have 4:4:4 support (PC mode) and native 23Hz / 24Hz support but NOT at the same time.

This is also the method of rtings

I am interested especially in following manufacturers:
Samsung
LG
Sony
Panasonic

Do you know of any other manufacturer who is seriously about their products? Let me know and I add it.

I can also summarize it in the first post, we'll see how it is going on.

You need a camera with manual setting for exposure time.
Set it to 1 second and take a photo of the screen. Better use a tripod

Download Testvideos

Here's a video of rtings of what to expect from the results:
Judder on TVs Explained (Motion 5/5) - Rtings.com

huhn · 24th February 2020, 18:14

sony is pretty much the only company where is is a given even on 60 hz panels but only for the not entry level devices.

panasonic doesn't support this by design.

phillips TV can do that usually too but they are not tested so sadly not a given.

TCL is supposed to do that too but they pretty much fail at the very forgiving banding test on rtings.

Quote:

I also created back in December testvideos which can detect 3:2 pulldown of your TV. You only need a camera with manual setting for exposure time. Set it to 1 second and take a photo. Best you use a tripod
So you can do a quick test of several different HDMI modes like PC mode, game mode ... .

why not do this by eye? it'S really not a hard task.
and even if you have trouble with that just compare it to 60 hz with SM if that should be better then frame matching your TVs 23p mode isn't working properly SM can not win i can only be as good.

Klaus1189 · 24th February 2020, 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by huhn

why not do this by eye? it'S really not a hard task.

To have an evidence photo

Klaus1189 · 24th February 2020, 18:25

Samsung has an overscan issue in pc mode affecting 23 Hz/24 Hz, 25 Hz, 50 Hz, but 29 Hz/30 Hz and 59 Hz/60 Hz is not affected.
I told Samsung some months ago abou it and now I am a bit pissed off. My Q9 is still on 1270 which is the last fine firmware, but this is a bit ridiculously that a huge company like Samsung has issues like that

I can not update it otherwise it would be affected by the bug, thank god only my little Samsung is affected, but I only watch news on it, so not an issue there. I realized it becuase I use an external receiver connected with HDMI cable and the little Samsung was set to pc mode and 50 Hz in Germany is affected by the firmware, so I made some tests, contacted Samsung, they did screenshots during remote maintenance and I told them step by step and little by little what to do and what exactly it is. How long can it take to find the bug in the code?

huhn · 24th February 2020, 18:27

beware the PC mode is often fake when it is not in 60 HZ mode with Samsung so you don't get 4:4:4 same with LG.

Klaus1189 · 24th February 2020, 18:29

I heard about LG's pc mode not really be 4:4:4 but can you please explain it for me?

huhn · 24th February 2020, 18:31

they often stop been 4:4:4 if you switch the refreshrate.

Klaus1189 · 24th February 2020, 18:33

Sorry, I don't understand that.

huhn · 24th February 2020, 18:37

they are 4:4:4 at 60 hz but not 4:4:4 at 24 hz for example.
that'S not always the case to day but it was a couple of years ago.

some times they could do 4:4:4 at 60 and 30 hz...

Quote:

There are for example TVs which have 4:4:4 support (PC mode) and native 23Hz / 24Hz support but NOT at the same time.

so this. just not obvious like Panasonic.

Klaus1189 · 24th February 2020, 19:49

I remember also that LG didn't do real 4:4:4, but I must admit I never unterstood the facts of the AVS thread, was it theat post?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58372750
Can't really remember.

tp4tissue · 24th February 2020, 23:07

Roku Platform Tvs, proper 444 @ 23/24/60 in PC-mode, not sure about 25/50, it may be available in europe models. But US models they don't often support the 25/50hz.

Roku plat: 11point gamma + colorspace editor available across all modes. <no funny stuff white point> White point will lock to what you set it

Samsung many models drops 444 @ 23/24 down to 420, only 444 in 60hz, and their detailed 10point gamma correction is not available in PC mode. only an rgb gains editor. Samsung white point is a moving target, it goes up and down, potentially temperature or ambient sensitive, this can not be disabled.

chros · 25th February 2020, 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by huhn

phillips TV can do that usually too but they are not tested so sadly not a given.

Philips OLEDs can't do it either according to Vincent's reviews (he stated the same about Pana OLEDs as well).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klaus1189

I remember also that LG didn't do real 4:4:4

Yes, that's the post. As we stated multiple times although it's not proper 4:4:4 but really close to it (at least with 2018/2019 OLEDs). But they can do judder free 23p in PC mode. PC mode with SDR is fine (just a bit worse than Normal mode), but there's heavy banding and posterization with HDR10 content (so most people don't use it with it, but I do

). DoVi is a completely different animal: although it stays in PC mode with it, but probably bypassing everything, so it's like Normal mode. More detailed info with a B8.

huhn · 25th February 2020, 14:24

good to know that drops the oled.

that's the problem with phillips they difference a lot or are just used in name.

YxP · 25th February 2020, 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

Samsung many models drops 444 @ 23/24 down to 420, only 444 in 60hz, and their detailed 10point gamma correction is not available in PC mode. only an rgb gains editor.

My experience is that many models = all models. Every Samsung I've ever tried have done this. It's almost enough for me to think that their software is at least 10 years old with bubblegum addons. Although my Q70R shows 4:2:2 working. Still not going to use it.

tp4tissue · 25th February 2020, 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by YxP

My experience is that many models = all models. Every Samsung I've ever tried have done this. It's almost enough for me to think that their software is at least 10 years old with bubblegum addons. Although my Q70R shows 4:2:2 working. Still not going to use it.

Well, I can't verify the claim for All the new Samsungs, So I chose to lighten the assertion in my post.

I'm not a fan of sams software for PC, It's more designed for regular tv-folks, like that white balance which doesn't lock.

YxP · 25th February 2020, 23:48

Happy to do it for you so you don't have to

Processing power should be there already to handle 4:4:4.

NanoBot · 26th February 2020, 19:36

Hi,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klaus1189

Samsung has an overscan issue in pc mode affecting 23 Hz/24 Hz, 25 Hz, 50 Hz, but 29 Hz/30 Hz and 59 Hz/60 Hz is not affected.

I own a UE40NU7199UXZG with firmware 1290.4 which has this issue. Nevertheless, I found a workaround to prevent the overscan:

In the "sources" menu, I did not declare that a pc is connected to the HDMI2 input. Instead, I declared that a home cinema system is connect to the HDMI2 input. The friendly name for for this input does not matter, so my "home cinema system" has the friendly name "PC".

Since I use this workaround, all 1920 x 1080 and 3840 x 2160 combinations of resolution and refresh rates are scaled 1:1, like it should be. Possibly this might help you.

For my tv model there is also a new firmware version 1292.1, but I did not flash it yet, so I can't tell, if the overscan bug is fixed or not. The changelog in the german samsung support forum does not mention anything about the overscan issue.

https://eu.community.samsung.com/t5/...e/td-p/1199276

C.U. NanoBot

DMU · 26th February 2020, 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by NanoBot

Instead, I declared that a home cinema system is connect to the HDMI2 input.

In this mode, your TV cuts chroma 4:4:4 to 4:2:2.

Klaus1189 · 26th February 2020, 19:52

But I think the TV does not display 4:4:4 color in that setting, does it?

EDIT: DMU beat me to it

NanoBot · 26th February 2020, 22:29

That's nearly correct, the nvidia control panel shows me that YCbCr 4:2:2 with 10 or 12bit color depth is the "best" colorspace and chroma subsampling I can use. But if I limit the color depth to 8bit, I can use 3840x2160 up to 60Hz with 4:4:4 or rgb.

Nevertheless, I only use 3840x2160 to playback movies in fullscreen mode. And afaik even UHD HDR10 movies use the 4:2:0 colorspace, so the limitation to 4:2:2 should not matter ?

The second limitation I see is the bandwidth of HDMI 2.0. If I am correct, it is 18 GBit/s. A resolution of 3840 x 2160 with a refresh rate >= 48fps and a 4:4:4 colorspace with 10bit or 12bit color depth exceeds this limit. Therefore I think, that I can't use 3840x2160 >=48fps and more than 8bit color depth anyway, since both the graphics card and the tv do have HDMI 2.0.

Nevertheless I will flash the newest firmware and check if the overscan issue is still present or not.

Edit:
The newest firmware for my tv ( 1292.1 ) does not solve the overscan issue. Since I don't care about the limitation to 4:2:2, I will stick to the workarround described.

24th February 2020, 18:04	#1 \| Link
Klaus1189 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Bavaria Posts: 1,667	Television issues and firmware bugs and buyers guide for your next TV Welcome, I am interested in TV's and want to collect infos, known issues of certain firmwares and general drawbacks of certains TV's, like 3:2 pulldown for 23p/24p which results in judder. I know rtings and they do a very nice job, but I think we should discuss it also here. I want for example a new TV, with full 4:4:4 / RGB chroma support but also native refresh rate support for 23Hz / 24Hz without judder, but (!!) both at the same time. Which manufacturers do support this? I also created back in December testvideos which can detect 3:2 pulldown of your TV. You only need a camera with manual setting for exposure time. Set it to 1 second and take a photo. Best you use a tripod So you can do a quick test of several different HDMI modes like PC mode, game mode ... . There are for example TVs which have 4:4:4 support (PC mode) and native 23Hz / 24Hz support but NOT at the same time. This is also the method of rtings I am interested especially in following manufacturers: Samsung LG Sony Panasonic Do you know of any other manufacturer who is seriously about their products? Let me know and I add it. I can also summarize it in the first post, we'll see how it is going on. You need a camera with manual setting for exposure time. Set it to 1 second and take a photo of the screen. Better use a tripod Download Testvideos Here's a video of rtings of what to expect from the results: Judder on TVs Explained (Motion 5/5) - Rtings.com

24th February 2020, 23:07	#11 \| Link
tp4tissue Registered User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 712	Roku Platform Tvs, proper 444 @ 23/24/60 in PC-mode, not sure about 25/50, it may be available in europe models. But US models they don't often support the 25/50hz. Roku plat: 11point gamma + colorspace editor available across all modes. <no funny stuff white point> White point will lock to what you set it Samsung many models drops 444 @ 23/24 down to 420, only 444 in 60hz, and their detailed 10point gamma correction is not available in PC mode. only an rgb gains editor. Samsung white point is a moving target, it goes up and down, potentially temperature or ambient sensitive, this can not be disabled. __________________ Ghetto \| 2500k 5Ghz Last edited by tp4tissue; 24th February 2020 at 23:11.

26th February 2020, 19:52	#19 \| Link
Klaus1189 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Bavaria Posts: 1,667	But I think the TV does not display 4:4:4 color in that setting, does it? EDIT: DMU beat me to it Last edited by Klaus1189; 26th February 2020 at 19:54.

26th February 2020, 22:29	#20 \| Link
NanoBot Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 209	That's nearly correct, the nvidia control panel shows me that YCbCr 4:2:2 with 10 or 12bit color depth is the "best" colorspace and chroma subsampling I can use. But if I limit the color depth to 8bit, I can use 3840x2160 up to 60Hz with 4:4:4 or rgb. Nevertheless, I only use 3840x2160 to playback movies in fullscreen mode. And afaik even UHD HDR10 movies use the 4:2:0 colorspace, so the limitation to 4:2:2 should not matter ? The second limitation I see is the bandwidth of HDMI 2.0. If I am correct, it is 18 GBit/s. A resolution of 3840 x 2160 with a refresh rate >= 48fps and a 4:4:4 colorspace with 10bit or 12bit color depth exceeds this limit. Therefore I think, that I can't use 3840x2160 >=48fps and more than 8bit color depth anyway, since both the graphics card and the tv do have HDMI 2.0. Nevertheless I will flash the newest firmware and check if the overscan issue is still present or not. Edit: The newest firmware for my tv ( 1292.1 ) does not solve the overscan issue. Since I don't care about the limitation to 4:2:2, I will stick to the workarround described. Last edited by NanoBot; 27th February 2020 at 16:19. Reason: Test with newest firmware

24th February 2020, 18:25	#4 \| Link
Klaus1189 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Bavaria Posts: 1,667	Samsung has an overscan issue in pc mode affecting 23 Hz/24 Hz, 25 Hz, 50 Hz, but 29 Hz/30 Hz and 59 Hz/60 Hz is not affected. I told Samsung some months ago abou it and now I am a bit pissed off. My Q9 is still on 1270 which is the last fine firmware, but this is a bit ridiculously that a huge company like Samsung has issues like that I can not update it otherwise it would be affected by the bug, thank god only my little Samsung is affected, but I only watch news on it, so not an issue there. I realized it becuase I use an external receiver connected with HDMI cable and the little Samsung was set to pc mode and 50 Hz in Germany is affected by the firmware, so I made some tests, contacted Samsung, they did screenshots during remote maintenance and I told them step by step and little by little what to do and what exactly it is. How long can it take to find the bug in the code?

24th February 2020, 18:27	#5 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,926	beware the PC mode is often fake when it is not in 60 HZ mode with Samsung so you don't get 4:4:4 same with LG.

24th February 2020, 18:29	#6 \| Link
Klaus1189 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Bavaria Posts: 1,667	I heard about LG's pc mode not really be 4:4:4 but can you please explain it for me?

24th February 2020, 18:31	#7 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,926	they often stop been 4:4:4 if you switch the refreshrate.

24th February 2020, 18:33	#8 \| Link
Klaus1189 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Bavaria Posts: 1,667	Sorry, I don't understand that.

24th February 2020, 19:49	#10 \| Link
Klaus1189 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Bavaria Posts: 1,667	I remember also that LG didn't do real 4:4:4, but I must admit I never unterstood the facts of the AVS thread, was it theat post? https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58372750 Can't really remember.

25th February 2020, 14:24	#13 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,926	good to know that drops the oled. that's the problem with phillips they difference a lot or are just used in name.

25th February 2020, 23:48	#16 \| Link
YxP Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 99	Happy to do it for you so you don't have to Processing power should be there already to handle 4:4:4.