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Old 5th February 2014, 17:02   #1  |  Link
srfscenar
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BD Live and Scenarist

Hi all,

Can someone give me details on BDLive?
- Can I have BD Live in HDMV?
- What do I have to have in order to add such a feature in Scenarist?
- What is the command for BDLive button?

In general, what I have to do/know to have such a feature for the first time?

Is there something/somewhere I can read about it?
SCN manual, of course, has no reference to it.

Sorry if I am asking too much!

Thanks!
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Old 5th February 2014, 17:50   #2  |  Link
mp3dom
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You need to do BD-J and Java programming. If you don't have any 'support tools' that can make life easier, you need to do it all by yourself. You need to use Scenarist HDMV in combination with Scenarist BD-J. Scenarist BD-J is, however, only an IDE (a modified version of Eclipse to be honest, with proper package/plugins for bluray).
Haven't find anywhere clear tutorials for BD-J so I cannot help more.
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Old 5th February 2014, 18:40   #3  |  Link
srfscenar
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So, only BD-J then.
I do not have BD-J knowledge but I would like to know more.
For example, how/where can I learn HOW on earth to use the Scenarist BD-J?
Lets say I have a BD-J programmer, what else is there?
How to make the menus, how to write the commands?
Are the commands the same as HDMV or there is something different?

All I know is that if the BDJO is created, all I need is the Scenarist HDMV + the correct path for the files as described in the BDJO.

Any help is MUCH appreciated!

Thanks!
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Old 6th February 2014, 09:14   #4  |  Link
mp3dom
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I don't have such knowledge either. I guess for menu the Designer PS plugin is still valid since it exports to mosaic for BD-J. Commands are different to HDMV but someone more skilled here is welcome.
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Old 7th February 2014, 10:42   #5  |  Link
srfscenar
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Yes, it would be nice to have an expert explain a few things.
I know it takes time to explain and write, but honestly, I cannot see another way of knowing...
Any help is more than welcome ;-)
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Old 7th February 2014, 22:31   #6  |  Link
rik1138
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Well, if all you want is a BD-Live 'thing' of some kind, you can still do all the menus in HDMV like you normally would. You would just have one button somewhere that launches the Java title with the code for whatever BD-Live functionality you want. (Of course, you can do all of the menus in Java as well.)

We have, in the past, had a third-party Java vendor write an application for a BD-Live utility, and we just programmed all the menus HDMV. They then delivered the finished Java code/BDJO, and we just dropped them into Scenarist.

As for actually programming anything in Java, I can't help much. The only Java work I've done has used a third-party Blu-ray Java programming tool (The one I've used is called Kaleidoscope from a company called Sofatronic, but I don't think they are in business anymore). DoStudio can also do Java applications, but I've never used it (the major movie studios hadn't approved it for use on their discs, so we never tried it...)

Keep in mind, for BD-Live you (or your client) also has to maintain a server somewhere on the internet for the disc to access... Some of the studios have already given up a lot of their BD-Live features as the cost vs return just wasn't worth it...
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Old 9th February 2014, 18:58   #7  |  Link
srfscenar
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Hi rik,

Thanks for all the info.
I told exactly the same thing to my client (the cost vs return just isn't worth it) and he agreed. So, he has abandoned the BD-Live option, for now.

Anyway, my next step is to learn how to make a BD-J. Of course not the programming because I have no idea about Java programming,
but what I would need in order to get a proper BDJO.

As mp3dom said, Designer can export BD-J menus, so that part is now clear.
As for the programming, are there 3rd party companies which can create a BDJO following our specs and then an author (me) who will implement that into Scenarist?
Can you recommend one?
If I have a Java developer, how would he learn the procedure to create a BDJO?

And one last, if I get a BDJO from another BD, can I "unwrap" it to read the code/commands? And if so, how?

Thanks once again!
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Old 10th February 2014, 21:28   #8  |  Link
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The BD-J programming tool, if it's designed to do Blu-ray BD-J, would make the BDJOs for you, and you just import them into Scenarist. (Kaleidoscope did this, I'm pretty sure DoStudio does as well).

BDJOs aren't encrypted or anything, you can grab one off any disc and import it into Scenarist and look at what it's settings are. The HD Cookbook tools can also convert BDJOs to readable XML and back to binary.

I don't have Scenarist in front of me right now, but creating a fairly generic BDJO in Scenarist isn't too hard. It just needs to know the name of the JARs it should have access to, the folder names in the JAR folder it should have access to, and the Org ID.

In addition, it contains UOPs for Title and Top Menu while in the Java title and disc unbound status (this can allow the Java code to stay running in the player when you eject the disc, frequently seen on multi-disc episodic TV show sets).

The tricky part would be getting it exactly the way you want for your application, but as I mentioned, hopefully the programming environment will create it for you.
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Old 12th February 2014, 12:01   #9  |  Link
srfscenar
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Thanks rik,

Kaleidoscope indeed is nowhere to be found, unfortunately :-(
If I import a BDJO in Scenarist, it indeed imports OK, but the properties are not much of help.
Now, creating a BDJO in Scenarist BD-J, even following step by step the Scenarist BD-J guide is a pain in the a@@
if you have no idea of Java programming, like me!

Anyway, I am trying to figure out the correct workflow. What are the steps I need to know/follow in order to have all the J assets I need to import to Scenarist.
for example, the J developer (who will work on the Eclipse or Kaleidoscope (if I find it)) what will he need from me (an HDMV author) in order to finish everything?
Just the menus exported from Designer and the path of the Audio/Video/subs assets?
And last, mp3dom said the commands are not the same as the HDMV, makes sense, but will a J developer know these if he haven't messed up with BD-J before
or there is a set of commands that apply for BD-J only and where can those be found?

Sorry for all these but I am trying to put it together ;-)

Thanks!
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Old 13th February 2014, 22:26   #10  |  Link
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I've never used the Scenarist BD-J tool... I just create BDJO's directly in Scenarist HDMV... But they are simple ones just to get the code to launch, we always use the ones created by either Kaleidoscope or the Java programmers for the final disc.

If the programmer has never done BD-J for Blu-ray before, you are likely going to run into difficulties. Generally, the HDMV programmer and J programmer have to work together (the HDMV programmer has to tell the J programmer where the menu video backgrounds are, what PlayList the movie/vam/etc are, what audio/subtitles are present in each PlayList and in what order, what needs to track from PlayList to PlayList, etc...) It's not really something that someone off-site can do and just hope for the best (unless they've done it before, and are very familiar with what's needed...) And you probably don't want to build up an entire Blu-ray Java core code structure from scratch, that's extremely complicated and would require a lot of testing... And don't forget resume functionality to be nice to your users... That's not built into Java like HDMV, you have to program it in...

The way to do it though would be for you to build the entire disc structure, and send a full disc image to the programmer to work with (with PlayList/Streams/other requirements in a document). The programmer then builds the menus and gets them to work, and sends a working disc image back to you for testing (or he can just send the JAR/BDJO/CERTIFICATE directories to you and you apply them to your project for further testing).

If you use Kaleidoscope, Designer won't help you since Kaleidoscope has it's own Photoshop format requirements (it reads the PSD directly). I have no idea what Designer will output for BD-J, I assume just a mosaic with a coordinate document (which is all Java needs really...), but I've never done it. (Kaleidoscope probably isn't an option though as it was a pay-per-use product. You had to re-license the software for every title you used it on, and were given special licensing keys for that title. That way they could monitor if a disc was programmed with a pirated copy of the software (assuming it was ever cracked/pirated). They knew the title of every disc that used their software. Although, now that they are gone, I'm not sure how that's monitored...)

I'm not familiar with DoStudio personally, but I believe that's another option for Java based discs that will do a lot of the work for you (I think it can even build the disc structure, although I know it works with Scenarist too). You can do 'game-type' Java apps and Live stuff as well, and it's currently available (and I believe will also support 4k content in the future, assuming a disc-based format is released...). This product is now owned/developed by Sony, so it's got that going for it...
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Old 14th February 2014, 09:22   #11  |  Link
srfscenar
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Thanks a lot rik! You really answered my questions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rik1138 View Post
I've never used the Scenarist BD-J tool... I just create BDJO's directly in Scenarist HDMV... But they are simple ones just to get the code to launch, we always use the ones created by either Kaleidoscope or the Java programmers for the final disc.
Please tell me if you can how you create a BDJO in HDMV and if possible describe an example of one you made.
What was the purpose of it, what did you used it for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rik1138 View Post
If you use Kaleidoscope, Designer won't help you since Kaleidoscope has it's own Photoshop format requirements (it reads the PSD directly). I have no idea what Designer will output for BD-J, I assume just a mosaic with a coordinate document (which is all Java needs really...), but I've never done it. (Kaleidoscope probably isn't an option though as it was a pay-per-use product. You had to re-license the software for every title you used it on, and were given special licensing keys for that title. That way they could monitor if a disc was programmed with a pirated copy of the software (assuming it was ever cracked/pirated). They knew the title of every disc that used their software. Although, now that they are gone, I'm not sure how that's monitored...)
Yes, I saw a video in youtube for Kaleidoscope (still there) where a psd is imported and basically all navigation is done in Kaleidoscope.
But, Designer exports a mosaic and a coordinate file. I guess that will work too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rik1138 View Post
I'm not familiar with DoStudio personally, but I believe that's another option for Java based discs that will do a lot of the work for you (I think it can even build the disc structure, although I know it works with Scenarist too). You can do 'game-type' Java apps and Live stuff as well, and it's currently available (and I believe will also support 4k content in the future, assuming a disc-based format is released...). This product is now owned/developed by Sony, so it's got that going for it...
I had the chance to test DoStudio for a while but to be honest its a real pain!
You have to be very careful with file namings because a small mistake could ruin everything!
Its a real shame for Scenarist, until the last minute I had a hope that someone would buy Scenarist products and continue the series.
Now there is only one, "a SONY to rule them all"! ;-)

Thanks again!
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