Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 21st July 2015, 09:06   #32001  |  Link
RainyDog
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I've decided to make a big screenshot comparison post to compare the different upscaling and sharpening / post-processing options we have now. In order to make all this more "scientific", I've decided that we need a "ground truth" image to compare to, because that's the only way to properly judge if an algorithm produces good results or not. If we don't have a ground truth to compare to, all our evaluations are somewhat subjective. So here comes.

Let me finish by saying that all of the above is of course only *one* test image. Results could in theory vary with other test images. I would like to encourage anyone who is interested in this kind of comparisons to repeat the same tests I've done, with a different test image. But please make sure you have a ground truth to compare to, because only that allows us to objectively judge. Otherwise all we can say is subjective mumbo-jumbo, and every user will have different preferences.

-------

Comments welcome!
Great post madshi!

A couple of things; can you confirm the strength and number of passes you used for SuperRes and super-xbr strength please? I presume defaults but can't see it mentioned in your post.

Also, is SuperRes only really intended for upscaled content or can it be used as a mild sharpener for HQ 1080p material on a 1080p display to help bring out fine details?
RainyDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2015, 09:25   #32002  |  Link
ryrynz
Registered User
 
ryrynz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,646
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Glad to hear you like my testing procedure. I tried to find a way to make things less subjective, to increase the chances that we may end up on the same page.
I'd like to see something similar comparing chroma upscaler accuracy.
ryrynz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2015, 09:34   #32003  |  Link
madshi
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,140
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainyDog View Post
can you confirm the strength and number of passes you used for SuperRes and super-xbr strength please? I presume defaults but can't see it mentioned in your post.
super-xbr-100, and highest possible strength (which is 4) for SuperRes. Strength 4 in v0.88.20 equals 8 passes with 1.0 strength in older madVR builds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainyDog View Post
Also, is SuperRes only really intended for upscaled content or can it be used as a mild sharpener for HQ 1080p material on a 1080p display to help bring out fine details?
Currently SuperRes only works after upscaling. Maybe we'll find a way to make it work without upscaling, too (Shiandow had a suggestion for that, or alternatively we could use supersampling). But I'm not sure when I'll get around to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
I'd like to see something similar comparing chroma upscaler accuracy.
That's much more complicated/difficult, I fear. E.g. Bilateral and SuperRes for chroma both look at the luma information, too. And studios might use anything from Nearest Neighbor Downscaling to Lanczos for chroma downscaling.
madshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2015, 09:54   #32004  |  Link
Gagorian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

I've not seen Darbee myself yet. But I've been told it does this:

> It's a frame-delayed unsharp mask. So if there's no
> movement in the scene, it's just plain unsharp mask.
> If there's a lot of movement, it's a random artifact
> generator. If there's a little movement, like on a slow
> pan or a helicopter shot, it's an unsharp mask that is
> more aggressive on one side of a detail and less
> aggressive on the other side, adding a little shadow.

So for still images, it should be somewhat similar to AdaptiveSharpen. One big disadvantage of current Darbee implementations is that if you let the display upscale (e.g. 4K display), Darbee is applied before upscaling. That's like applying AdaptiveSharpen in "image enhancements". It's effective, but ugly. You'd get better quality doing it after upscaling. But AFAIK current Darbee implementations don't have the power to do 4K.

Anyway, personally I'm not really a fan of the look that unsharp mask style sharpening produces. To my eyes it looks like fat lines get even fatter. It seems to "bloat up" the image somehow, adding more contrast and pop, but making the image look more artificial. You can see some of that in my screenshot comparison post when comparing AdaptiveSharpen to FineSharp. The look which AdaptiveSharpen produces is typical for unsharp mask style sharpening.
I've been using it (after upscaling if needed) at 1080p on a 133" screen. I believe Darbee looks better in motion than when evaluating still images. I think the effect is ok up until about 30% strength and then it gets progressively more ugly. Until that point that it adds a nice amount of crispness/pop to the image and compensates for the slightly soft image of the projector (Sony HW50). I think the artifacts are the worst problem, especially on subtitles. Using lower strength does reduce the artifacts, but not completely.

I've been following this thread closely to see if any of the new algorithms could allow me to replace the Darbee. SuperRes looks like the best so far but I'm not sure if it works to improve the perceived sharpness of the projector like the Darbee does. Perhaps a touch of AS on top?
Gagorian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2015, 09:58   #32005  |  Link
madshi
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,140
I can't really say for sure. Just play with the various options and let your eyes be the judge. And please report your findings here, would love to hear how you like SuperRes, AdaptiveSharpen etc compared to what the Darbee does.
madshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2015, 10:41   #32006  |  Link
ryrynz
Registered User
 
ryrynz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,646
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
SuperRes is near to FineSharp in detail level and sharpness, but at the same time manages to hide all artifacts caused by NNEDI3. So SuperRes is not only a good sharpener, but also manages to repair errors of the upscaling algorithm.
It's good at the standard radius setting of 0.66 but provides a rather soft result. Drop the radius to 0.20 and the image is now godly.
BTW at this radius, strength does very little 4 is a touch sharper than 1 and I prefer it at 4.

Comparison sample upscaled using a 2x pixel resize.

ORIGINAL


NNEDI-256+SR-STR4-R0.66


NNEDI-256+SR-STR4-R0.20


Much more accurate to the source using SR at a radius of 0.20, lots of extra detail here all over. I have a new high standard...

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
That's much more complicated/difficult, I fear. E.g. Bilateral and SuperRes for chroma both look at the luma information, too. And studios might use anything from Nearest Neighbor Downscaling to Lanczos for chroma downscaling.
Having something is better than nothing.. might not be 100% accurate but *shrug* work with what you got.

Last edited by ryrynz; 21st July 2015 at 10:46.
ryrynz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2015, 10:41   #32007  |  Link
ikarad
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Bilinear+SuperRes -|- Jinc+SuperRes -|- super-xbr+SuperRes -|- NNEDI3+SuperRes -|- GroundTruth

What we can see here is that SuperRes works well even when using Bilinear upscaling. However, SuperRes does *not* remove aliasing artifacts caused by the upscaling algorithm. E.g. look at the roof edges of the left two towers. Both Bilinear and Jinc have aliasing problems there. super-xbr and NNEDI3 have not. Because of this reason, my recommendation would be to use either super-xbr or NNEDI3, followed by SuperRes, for best image quality. The difference between super-xbr and NNEDI3 is pretty small, if you follow it up with SuperRes with high strength. So using super-xbr should save some precious GPU performance. Using Jinc+SuperRes might be an option, too, but you'll likely get more aliasing problems compared to super-xbr+SuperRes.
Thanks for these comparisons.
I have one question:
super-xbr and nneedi116,32,64,128,256 are only available in image doubling. If I use image doubling, downscaling image is obligatory used for my display (I don't have movie with exactly 50% display resolution).

If I use jinc (jinc is only avalaible in image upscaling) in image upscaling, no need to use donwscaling image.

Even with downscaling, is it better to use superxbr or is it better to use jinc withtout downscaling?
ikarad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2015, 10:51   #32008  |  Link
madshi
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,140
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
It's good at the standard radius setting of 0.66 but provides a rather soft result. Drop the radius to 0.20 and the image is now godly.
It reproduces some more details, but it also adds a lot of aliasing. This might not be so apparent in the castle image, but I've seen it in other images. E.g. try this:

http://madshi.net/clown.png

I fear we may have to increase the radius to a value *higher* than 0.66 to get rid of aliasing problems. Sad but probably necessary...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikarad View Post
super-xbr and nneedi116,32,64,128,256 are only available in image doubling. If I use image doubling, downscaling image is obligatory used for my display (I don't have movie with exactly 50% display resolution).

If I use jinc (jinc is only avalaible in image upscaling) in image upscaling, no need to use donwscaling image.

Even with downscaling, is it better to use superxbr or is it better to use jinc withtout downscaling?
I think from a quality point of view, using image doubling + downscaling should be better than straight upscaling. Not sure about GPU power, though. Depending on the exact scaling factor, sometimes doubling + downscaling might be faster or slower than straight upscaling.
madshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2015, 10:52   #32009  |  Link
David
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 16
What Didée said about Darbee:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Didée View Post
Seems that is not quite comparable. FineSharp, as the name somehow suggets, deals mostly with enhancement of fine structures and edges. Darbee seems to implement something like a wide-range Unsharp-Mask with halo protection.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...26#post1595526

Quote:
Originally Posted by Didée View Post
A year or some other back, I fiddled with a multi-scale sampled, (quasi-) median enhancer. Those results were more or less similar to what Darbee is achieving.

A (pretty naive and pretty slow) version is to simply use a wide-range median filter for sharpening.

Code:
# medianblur.dll
# repairSSE2.dll
# mt_masktools-25.dll

imagesource("D:\darbee_6_0_test.png").converttoyv12()

a = last
b = a.medianblur(12,8,8)
c = a.repair(a.repair(a.repair(a.repair(a.repair(a.repair(a.repair(a.repair(b,1),1),1),1),1),1),1),1)
d = mt_lutxy(a,c,"x x y - abs 1.62 2 ^ / 1 1.62 / ^ 1.62 3 ^ * x y - x y - abs 1.62 + / * +",U=3,V=3)

interleave(a,d)

return(last)

==>

(Open in tabs to flip back-n-forth.)
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...31#post1595531

Quote:
Originally Posted by Didée View Post
Not yet. This is only a torchlight, in practice things shouldn't be done that simple. A particular problem is chroma handling, which must be done different. It would be needed to isolate a saturation layer, and work on that. When done directly like in this little script, nasty things will happen. Against a green background, a grey line will turn into purple, and such.
And for big framesizes like full-HD, a multiscale version is pretty much recommended. Doing a big-range median on full-HD is anything but funny, speed-wise.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...42#post1595542
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2015, 10:55   #32010  |  Link
ryrynz
Registered User
 
ryrynz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,646
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
It reproduces some more details, but it also adds a lot of aliasing. This might not be so apparent in the castle image, but I've seen it in other images. E.g. try this:

http://madshi.net/clown.png

Does an image that small really fit the bill as far as being comparable to typical use cases?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I fear we may have to increase the radius to a value *higher* than 0.66 to get rid of aliasing problems. Sad but probably necessary...
Could that be cheated by an additional anti-aliasing step afterwards? Probably overkill...
I do prefer the edges when using a higher radius but I'd rather have that detail there.
I wonder if Shiandow could focus his attention on this particular area at all, a high radius SR utilized for edges only.. I dunno.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
What Didée said about Darbee:
Ugh, that's horrible.

Last edited by ryrynz; 21st July 2015 at 12:33.
ryrynz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2015, 11:35   #32011  |  Link
x7007
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 315
Anyone is able to run CUVID Acceleration from LAV Video Filter with MADVR and not freeze and crash ? None and Write-Back works fine, just the mixed with Madvr + CUVID .

Nvidia 353.49
LavFilters 0.65
PotPlayer 1.6.55124 x32
Windows 10 10240 x64
x7007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2015, 11:37   #32012  |  Link
ashlar42
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 652
madshi, fantastic service to users with your huge images comparison post. I loved it!

I read what you wrote about subs rendering on black bars. I'll wait patiently. Happy to hear you are aware of the need for it.
ashlar42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2015, 11:52   #32013  |  Link
RainyDog
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikarad View Post
Thanks for these comparisons.
I have one question:
super-xbr and nneedi116,32,64,128,256 are only available in image doubling. If I use image doubling, downscaling image is obligatory used for my display (I don't have movie with exactly 50% display resolution).

If I use jinc (jinc is only avalaible in image upscaling) in image upscaling, no need to use donwscaling image.

Even with downscaling, is it better to use superxbr or is it better to use jinc withtout downscaling?
For scaling 720p>1080p on my 1080p display, I find image-doubling + downscaling to be superior to just upscaling with Jinc3 even with the extra (down)scaling process involved.

Using super-xbr, it's no more resource hungry either.
RainyDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2015, 11:52   #32014  |  Link
omarank
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I've decided to make a big screenshot comparison post to compare the different upscaling and sharpening / post-processing options we have now....
Thank you madshi for taking time to write such a detailed post. It not only shows how good SuperRes is but also the ideal approach to do the testing. The confusion which I had about the absolute best upscaling method in madVR, given there are so many choices now, is cleared up.
omarank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2015, 12:20   #32015  |  Link
David
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post

Ugh, that's horrible.
I think so too.

on another topic. Anyone knows if random dithering in madvr 86 was with coloured noise?

With madvr new versions if i untick colour noise i can see banding in the skin of a person in a scene. With madvr 86, evr and wd player that banding is not there.

Last edited by David; 21st July 2015 at 12:41. Reason: I dont remember right know if it was with evr +16 bit processing and i am not at home to check it
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2015, 12:48   #32016  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
I think so too.

on another topic. Anyone knows if random dithering in madvr 86 was with coloured noise?

With madvr new versions if i untick colour noise i can see banding in the skin of a person in a scene. With madvr 86, evr and wd player that banding is not there.
can you make screens of this?
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2015, 13:12   #32017  |  Link
x7007
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 315
Anyone managed to run PotPlayer in windows 10 with CUVID without total player freeze ?
x7007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2015, 13:26   #32018  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
do you get this problem only with madVR?

and why do people still use CUVID? DXVA copyback is just better.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2015, 13:35   #32019  |  Link
x7007
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
do you get this problem only with madVR?

and why do people still use CUVID? DXVA copyback is just better.


hmm , I don't know, I prefer the CUVID, I am just used to it.

I have the issue when I use madvr+cuvid and only with madvr is the issue , EVR Custom present + Cuvid works fine
x7007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2015, 13:42   #32020  |  Link
David
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
can you make screens of this?
Not right know because i am on holidays, but sure i will even if them are not neccesary for the answer to the question. I have curiouty about this since madvr 87.X
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 23:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.