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Old 17th February 2014, 07:56   #23341  |  Link
ryrynz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
For me its still A2.
Sounds reasonable. Screenshots would be great.
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Old 17th February 2014, 08:08   #23342  |  Link
James Freeman
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Comparison of all the NL1-8 and AD1-4, Grey & Color: ED Builds Test.zip

* Ver Greeneyes's 16-bit videos are used (Color & Grey).
* Organized in folders according to frame.
* "NL Tests" are frame 88 of Color.

IMO, You should look for smoothness in transition and no abrupt changes or big brightness (gamma) changes.
Also, the dithering pattern should look even and without "holes"** in the dithering pattern.
**(I'm not talking about the undithered places which should be undithered).

Now more than 3 people can decide the future of MadVR.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 17th February 2014 at 09:59.
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Old 17th February 2014, 08:20   #23343  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
This build is a slight modification of the A1 build, in the same way that A3 was a slight modification of the A2 build. So basically A1 -> A4. And A2 -> A3.
At this point, I'll only say that the A4 is a major improvement over the A1 build on linear gradients. I won't know my preference among all the adaptive builds, until I expand my tests to examine the dithering behavior on real-world videos.
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Old 17th February 2014, 09:13   #23344  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
IMO dithering should never be disabled in madVR, especially if you can use the great OpenCL (really DirectCompute now) error diffusion dithering.
I think we are in 100% agreement when I stated "If so then "Use random dithering instead of OpenCL error diffusion" should not be selected." BTW: I had overlooked the "Don't use dithering" option at the bottom of the "Trade quality for performance" section - not that it was selected.

Bottom Line is that I have spent the whole day attempting to find a combination which yields screen shots demonstrating the effects of the various MadVR*.ax files and have not succeeded. In the past simply deselecting random dithering, capturing the screen with MadVR or Printscreen has worked.

Now for an unknown reason(s) no combination of NV12, YV12, adaptive4, linearlight, MadVR image capture or printscreen (with and without FSE) shows any indication that dithering (error diffusion) is changing. Based on past experience with the MP4-2c gray scale-ramps and test files provided here they have never looked better - while utilizing whatever method they are using (or not)

Shared folder @Mediafire

I'm stumped and this doesn't happen all that often when it comes to 'pixel peeping'. I'm open to all specific suggestions relating to MadVR/LAV settings (I disabled ffdshow and associated AVIsynth scripts right up front).
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Old 17th February 2014, 09:38   #23345  |  Link
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MistahBonzai,

Everything is fine, ED is changing.
The difference is so refined between the latest builds, that its almost invisible with the naked eye (without software intervention).

Its not the big difference we had between, DC3, Noisy & NL builds.
We are at the top of the pyramid (so to speak) now.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 17th February 2014 at 09:40.
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Old 17th February 2014, 11:07   #23346  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
A4 looks good in terms of randomness but its also the brightest and has the most abrupt transition to black.
It might very well be a good thing because when transitions to black aren't "abrupt" this might very well kill contrast and clarity on edges, just a thought as I care a lot more about subjective impressions than overblown screenshots.

All I'm saying is that subjective contrast is amazing with A4(Oblivion looks so darn good, yay!) so this might very well match your findings, 0.2 cents territory here so don't throw rocks at me just yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
The difference is so refined between the latest builds that it's almost invisible with the naked eye (without software intervention).
FWIW I can DBT them anytime you want.

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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
I think you got it right.
It was meant as a joke but sarcasm notoriously doesn't work too well over the internet

Last edited by leeperry; 17th February 2014 at 11:15.
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Old 17th February 2014, 11:24   #23347  |  Link
James Freeman
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
It might very well be a good thing because when transitions to black aren't "abrupt" this might very well kill contrast and clarity on edges,
just a thought as I care a lot more about subjective impressions than overblown screenshots.

All I'm saying is that subjective contrast is amazing with A4 so this might very well match your findings, 0.2 cents territory here so don't throw rocks at me just yet
Me too, but I can't really see the difference without software intervention, so I had to base my conclusions on the overblown images (like everyone else).

Subjective contrast can mean Enhanced Contrast and that's not a good thing for video purists or what MadVR is trying to achieve.
I think we should go for accuracy instead of subjective perception.

What do you think?

Quote:
FWIW I can DBT them anytime you want.
Hmm....without enhancements?
You seem to be the only one...

On my hardware calibrated (i1 Display Pro) monitor, I can't see the difference with my naked eyes.
On what hardware do you compare the builds?
Are you sure your TV/Monitor doesn't do some funky enhancements or something?
Maybe you have the Brightness (TV) set too high so you can clearly see what supposed to be very dark (where the dithering is most prominent)?
Wait, don't tell me you're sitting a foot from a 100" TV?
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Last edited by James Freeman; 17th February 2014 at 11:38.
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Old 17th February 2014, 11:38   #23348  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Subjective contrast can mean Enhanced Contrast and that's not a good thing for video purists or what MadVR is trying to achieve.
I think we should go for accuracy instead of subjective perception.

What do you think?
Accuracy as compared to what? The more it goes the more ED's come with a lower noise floor and consequently an improved sense of depth as dynamics are increased. Don't shoot the messenger, A2/A3 look foggy to me as moving objects seem too blended-in and edges aren't clearly defined anymore. I'll even go for RD over A2/A3, edges are far more discernable than in that big syrupy noise feast.

Please be so kind as to define "video purist", I'm new to this hobby.

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Hmm....without enhancements?
I quit doing weed ages ago if that's what you meant, it gave me the munches

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Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
You seem to be the only one...
Mind you, many ppl see have previously seen differences between those algorithms, but apparently only one person bothered sitting down and scrutinize changes between the A builds so far:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mithra66 View Post
I prefer A1 > A3 >= A2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
On what hardware do you compare the builds?
1GHz HD7850, W7SP1, NNEDI 64x/ED all the way, dead-on REC709 gamut mapped 3500:1 32" A-MVA panel LED TV with BFI turned on from a 80 cm distance in a pitch black room.
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Old 17th February 2014, 11:53   #23349  |  Link
James Freeman
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Please be so kind as to define "video purist", I'm new to this hobby.
Audiophiles, Videophiles...

What comes in, comes out, as the mastering engineers intended.
Properly calibrated equipment (to a standard) without enhancements.
Quote:
I quit doing weed ages ago if that's what you meant, it gave me the munches
I never did.
Quote:
Mind you, many ppl see have previously seen differences between those algorithms, but apparently only one person bothered sitting down and scrutinize changes between the A builds so far:
What am I not a factor? I gave my best shot.
I voted A2 after a comprehensive test.
Quote:
1GHz HD7850, W7SP1, NNEDI 64x/ED all the way, dead-on REC709 gamut mapped 3500:1 32" A-MVA panel LED TV with BFI turned on from a 80 cm distance in a pitch black room.
Looks good.
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Old 17th February 2014, 11:53   #23350  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Comparison of all the NL1-8 and AD1-4, Grey & Color: ED Builds Test.zip
Thank you.

Color 250, AD4 wins by a mile, that center bit just get fixed man.
The graduation is much better than the rest IMO. I'm all over AD4.
Only reason I could possibly see passing it up is if it's brighter than it should be..

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
FWIW I can DBT them anytime you want.
Anyone wanna put together a pot for this? XD

Mean signature. "I'll DBT anytime you want"

Last edited by ryrynz; 17th February 2014 at 11:56.
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Old 17th February 2014, 12:02   #23351  |  Link
James Freeman
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Thank you.

Color 250, AD4 wins by a mile, that center bit just get fixed man.
The graduation is much better than the rest IMO. I'm all over AD4.
Only reason I could possibly see passing it up is if it's brighter than it should be..

The 250 Color undergone a slightly different procedure than 88 & 150, to see the difference clearer.

Yes, A4 is better than A1.
I wouldn't mind if A4 is selected as the final build, but NOT A1.
I still like A2 the most, but A4 will also do.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 17th February 2014 at 15:03.
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Old 17th February 2014, 12:07   #23352  |  Link
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1GHz HD7850, W7SP1, NNEDI 64x/ED all the way, dead-on REC709 gamut mapped 3500:1 32" A-MVA panel LED TV with BFI turned on from a 80 cm distance in a pitch black room.
on a 4:2:2 display yeah sounds reasonable.
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Old 17th February 2014, 12:19   #23353  |  Link
James Freeman
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@Ver Greeneyes

Can you please make an, 8-bit yuv444p video of Color & Grey, to compare the dithered 16-bit vs undithered 8-bit at the same frame?
True 8-bit video should not be dithered at all, right?
The purpose of this is to test the Gamma or any other deviations between the builds.

Thanks.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 17th February 2014 at 13:18.
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Old 17th February 2014, 12:28   #23354  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
IMO dithering should never be disabled in madVR, especially if you can use the great OpenCL (really DirectCompute now) error diffusion dithering.
Not entirely true. In my case any added dithering through MadVR raises my black level floor slightly where it doesn't match with the Brightness setting which was calibrated to through a different device such as a pattern generator and/or blu-ray player. So if someone out there has a plasma or any other device that generates it's video through dithering in the panel itself, and they plan to calibrate through MadVR for say an HTPC, then it may be beneficial to disable dithering entirely so that all sources in the display chain match. (OTA TV broadcasts, cable/dish broadcasts, blu-ray player, gaming systems, etc...)

But whenever you are going to watch any video content through MadVR, then of course enable dithering as the banding that is produced without it can be visible in some content. I have tried to tell the difference between all the new ED builds, but frankly I guess my eyes aren't keen enough to see the difference. I'm currently using EDAD4 and have seen no problems with anything I've watched through it. Same goes for all the previous builds which I have tried with regular content.
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Old 17th February 2014, 13:04   #23355  |  Link
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The clearest Comparison: Color 110 AD1-4.zip

EDIT:
The last comparison had an error, this zip (fixed) should accurately reflect whats going on.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 17th February 2014 at 14:58.
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Old 17th February 2014, 14:04   #23356  |  Link
leeperry
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What am I not a factor? I gave my best shot.
I voted A2 after a comprehensive test.
My bad, I thought you were only nitpicking about screenshots.

I should have also stated that I run Reclock & have "low" debanding forced in mVR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
I wouldn't mind if A4 is selected as the final build, but NOT A1.
A1 is obsolete compared to A4, both technically and visually IMHO.

Anyway, this quote might save the day:
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Whether A3 or A4 is better might be a matter of taste. I think A3 has a slightly more random look. Which could be positive or negative, depending on taste.
madshi will not try to convince either of us that strawberry tastes better than banana, maybe A4 + A2(or 3) might be the final ED's

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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Anyone wanna put together a pot for this? XD

Mean signature. "I'll DBT anytime you want"
It's rather exhausting to compare them as it takes a lot of concentration but make it interesting and we got a deal

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
on a 4:2:2 display yeah sounds reasonable.
Yep, chroma is such a big deal when it comes to sharpness. I'll take 4:2:2 BFI over blurry 60Hz-only 4:4:4 LCD anytime of the day. Especially as the TV runs a 10/12bit video engine and I feed it J3AR chroma to begin with. Necessary evil - perfect world, you know the drill.

Last edited by leeperry; 17th February 2014 at 14:06.
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Old 17th February 2014, 14:09   #23357  |  Link
cyberbeing
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Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Using my special method.
...
A1 & A4 are a tad brighter than A2 & A3.
That isn't just a tad brighter, but rather multiple levels brighter. I'd question your special brightening method for causing this discrepancy. You must have brightened A1 & A4 more than A2 & A3 because of noise level differences. In untouched form, all these adaptive routines should have identical overall brightness with 1/100th of a level step accuracy.
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Old 17th February 2014, 14:19   #23358  |  Link
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That isn't just a tad brighter, but rather multiple levels brighter. I'd question your special brightening method for causing this discrepancy. You must have brightened A1 & A4 more than A2 & A3 because of noise level differences. In untouched form, all these adaptive routines should have identical overall brightness with 1/100th of a level step accuracy.
EDIT:

You are correct.
There is one step error with the last zip file, I'll fix that right away!

Fixed: This post.

Instead of changing the Input Levels, I just move the middle slider of the Output Levels closer to 255 to give that result.
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Old 17th February 2014, 15:07   #23359  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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@Ver Greeneyes

Can you please make an, 8-bit yuv444p video of Color & Grey, to compare the dithered 16-bit vs undithered 8-bit at the same frame?
True 8-bit video should not be dithered at all, right?
The purpose of this is to test the Gamma or any other deviations between the builds.
Okay, link in my signature.

I still need to update the colored version.

Edit: 8-bit version re-encoded in "bgr0" color space (should be the same result as rgb24), and updated the colored versions.

Last edited by Ver Greeneyes; 17th February 2014 at 15:56.
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Old 17th February 2014, 16:07   #23360  |  Link
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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Honestly, pixel art does not look good when you use video-style filters on it. It's just not how it was intended to look...
Yes: What I pointed to was a general purpose image resampling method... that does reasonably well with pixel art.
Really (and I believe madshi has pointed that out already, and you are basically reiterating here) pixel art calls for specialized methods.
This being said, if you are willing to use NNEDI on pixel art, you may as well give a try to a tuned Jinc.
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