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Old 15th January 2016, 06:45   #35341  |  Link
omarank
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
My projector doesn't support frame packed 3D at 50p/60p, AFAIK. I'm not sure if many other display do?
I am not sure either, but if there is a utility to check that capability different users can confirm whether their TV has it or not.

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
And when presenting 3D, all I can do is tell Direct3D11/DXGI that I want to render & present stereo content. I can't configure whether I want frame packed, side-by-side, row interleaved or whatever. That's all outside of my control.
I think you can create Row/Column Interleaved and Checkerboard frames from stereo frames and output as 2D, just like you output SBS as a fallback method. For passive 3D sets, Row/Column Interleaved output should result in higher image quality as compared to frame packed 3D where the TV will use its internal processing to convert to Interleaved.
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Old 15th January 2016, 06:59   #35342  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omarank View Post
I think you can create Row/Column Interleaved and Checkerboard frames from stereo frames and output as 2D, just like you output SBS as a fallback method. For passive 3D sets, Row/Column Interleaved output should result in higher image quality as compared to frame packed 3D where the TV will use its internal processing to convert to Interleaved.
It's a good idea, i think it's can help
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Old 15th January 2016, 08:04   #35343  |  Link
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Originally Posted by AngelGraves13 View Post
Almost everything will benefit from having it on.
even FSE?
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Old 15th January 2016, 08:47   #35344  |  Link
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
even FSE?
FSE, like its name implies, will bypass the DWM. So from that standpoint it's neutral. But you really shouldn't have to disable the dwm for anything.

Last edited by TheRyuu; 15th January 2016 at 09:34.
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Old 15th January 2016, 11:25   #35345  |  Link
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And your TV actually understands that? I think that's one possible 3D format, but not a lot of TVs can handle it.


I don't subtitles should be a problem for the way madVR renders 3D. madVR simply draws all subtitles on both left and right eye view at the same position. I think that should work just fine.


I have an nvidia windows 8.1 machine and 3D works just fine here. I will probably upgrade to windows 10 sooner or later, but I doubt it will make a difference.
It's basically 23fps 2160p, but when you enable "side by side" or "over under", vertical or horizontal resolution gets cut in half as it combines two sides into 3D or over/under into 3D. Most TVs should support this, it doesn't require 3D planes either since one side = one eye, and subtitles are rendered at both. The downside is that 4k is needed otherwise it's gonna be something like 960x1080 or 1920x540, no software is needed as the TV does all of the work, the player only needs to show the MVC stream at right or left and 2D stream at other, with subtitles at both.

http://www.roadtovr.com/wp-content/u...s-example.jpeg
Side by Side without the TV combining them to 3D, MVC stream at right, original at left.

If MadVR can handle 3D subtitles without it bugging, then sure I have no issues using frame-packed, it's just that my past experience subtitles are 2D which is unacceptable or they are 3D but without the 3D information/plane which causes buggyness.

Last edited by XTrojan; 15th January 2016 at 11:32.
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Old 15th January 2016, 12:34   #35346  |  Link
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Originally Posted by TheRyuu View Post
FSE, like its name implies, will bypass the DWM. So from that standpoint it's neutral. But you really shouldn't have to disable the dwm for anything.
Thought so, so to make myself perfectly clear that quote from madshi doesn't appear to apply to FSE in which case W7 is just as good as W8?

I don't care for bs 3D effects on my desktop windows and I only care for FSE in mVR.
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Old 15th January 2016, 12:40   #35347  |  Link
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Originally Posted by MSL_DK View Post
I just bought a Panasonic TX-55CX700. I have a problem with obtaining 1080p/60Hz 4:4:4. AMD is set to Full RGB. madVR to 0-255. Panasonic is set to "HDMI RGB RANGE" Full. But the only thing I see is 4:2:2. Any suggestions on what I'm doing wrong. I had no problem with my Samsung TV.
AFAIK, Panasonic always (any model) converts RGB to YCbCr 4:2:2 for internal processing. Last series are capable to pass YCbCr 4:4:4 in 'pure direct' mode, but I'm not sure its same for TX-55CX700 and anyway with YCbCr in the videodriver you will lose luma information even more than chroma with RGB.
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Old 15th January 2016, 12:54   #35348  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Fair enough, but does it matter if we don't like Aero and have it disabled in W7? It's not all that clear whether DWM is just the fancy name for that Aero thing that makes desktop windows transparent
Video Playback in the old DX9 exclusive pack is essentially perfect here with Aero disabled in W7.

Aero is horse garbage anyway, input lag and performance issues and stuttering galore when it interacts with things it shouldn't..
Not giving people the ability to disable Vsync after W7 is strange.

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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Thought so, so to make myself perfectly clear that quote from madshi doesn't appear to apply to FSE in which case W7 is just as good as W8?

I don't care for bs 3D effects on my desktop windows and I only care for FSE in mVR.
DWM in W7 isn't good. But also enabling Aero in W7 is what enables DX11 FSE, with Aero disabled it uses DX9 FSE.
In my past testing with a GTX 980, DX9 FSE had faster rendering times.

The only benefit from DWM in W7 is Vsync when streaming video through a web browser.

Last edited by MrBonk; 15th January 2016 at 13:05.
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Old 15th January 2016, 13:08   #35349  |  Link
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I have a question regarding the upcoming UHD Blurays.

Will Dolby HDR and HDR10 be supported? And how will ripping work with HDCP 2.2 protection?

I heard that currently Nvidia nor AMD doesn't support HDR, but upcoming AMD Polaris will.
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Old 15th January 2016, 13:36   #35350  |  Link
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Originally Posted by XTrojan View Post
And how will ripping work with HDCP 2.2 protection?
Decrypting will likely be your responsibility, madVR does not use any protected paths, i.e. a HDCP display would not be required.
But as of today there are neither discs nor decryption software available. It's too early for those questions.

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Originally Posted by XTrojan View Post
I heard that currently Nvidia nor AMD doesn't support HDR, but upcoming AMD Polaris will.
Currently no special HDR hardware support is required by madvr as it does not output any HDR metadata. Madshi explained it at bit here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...ostcount=34630

Full fixed function 10 bit HEVC decoding is currently only available on Nvidia GeForce GTX 750 SE, GTX 950, GTX 960. For AMD and Intel it will probably come with Polaris/Kaby Lake. A fast CPU might be able to at least do 2160p24 in software, though.

I will leave the answer about the different HDR variants to madshi but I'm pretty sure not all of them are supported at the moment. Nev and madshi will probably require at least the specs and samples and we might not get the latter before we can decrypt the discs (metadata might even be in playlist file, not HEVC SEI). Let's hope the new encryption will not be too big of a hurdle.
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Old 15th January 2016, 13:36   #35351  |  Link
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Got 3D working in jriver mc using amd r9 270x. I needed to install crimson 16.1 hotfix, latest MadVR and LAV. The other thing I had to do in my projector is swap which eye comes first from "normal" to "swapped".

At first the video was a bit jerky but once I reduced all the scaling algorithms to no more than about super-xbr 100 or was fine.
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Old 15th January 2016, 14:28   #35352  |  Link
XTrojan
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Originally Posted by sneaker_ger View Post
Decrypting will likely be your responsibility, madVR does not use any protected paths, i.e. a HDCP display would not be required.
But as of today there are neither discs nor decryption software available. It's too early for those questions.


Currently no special HDR hardware support is required by madvr as it does not output any HDR metadata. Madshi explained it at bit here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...ostcount=34630

Full fixed function 10 bit HEVC decoding is currently only available on Nvidia GeForce GTX 750 SE, GTX 950, GTX 960. For AMD and Intel it will probably come with Polaris/Kaby Lake. A fast CPU might be able to at least do 2160p24 in software, though.

I will leave the answer about the different HDR variants to madshi but I'm pretty sure not all of them are supported at the moment. Nev and madshi will probably require at least the specs and samples and we might not get the latter before we can decrypt the discs (metadata might even be in playlist file, not HEVC SEI). Let's hope the new encryption will not be too big of a hurdle.
There's metadata, the samsung demo in a .mpeg container apparantly has HDR metadata, though i'm unsure if it's the final versions.

I do know the video is HDR as I tested it with a USB and my TV (JS9000), reports that it's getting HDR and changes backlight to max and dimming.

http://demo-uhd3d.com/categorie.php?tag=hdr
http://demo-uhd3d.com/fiche.php?cat=uhd&id=115

Can anyone check out that file, since mediainfo can't report the HDR info.

Last edited by XTrojan; 15th January 2016 at 14:44.
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Old 15th January 2016, 16:32   #35353  |  Link
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Originally Posted by apgood View Post
Got 3D working in jriver mc using amd r9 270x. I needed to install crimson 16.1 hotfix, latest MadVR and LAV. The other thing I had to do in my projector is swap which eye comes first from "normal" to "swapped".

At first the video was a bit jerky but once I reduced all the scaling algorithms to no more than about super-xbr 100 or was fine.
Thanks. Did you check with say chapter 2 of Gravity that the depth was correct? For example, when they circle around each other in space, is the depth correct for each of them and the rope/tether?
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Old 15th January 2016, 17:30   #35354  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
This is a bug in the AMD driver, and isn't something Nev or Madshi can do anything about.
Is it a constant delay? E.g. exactly one frame? Or does the delay differ sometimes, from movie to movie, or even from frame to frame? If it's a constant delay then it shouldn't be too hard to implement an option to delay one eye by 1-3 frames or so.

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Originally Posted by har3inger View Post
I have some quick feedback re: chroma superres.

From what I can see, the superres for chroma is quite similar to the superres for image refinement right now. However, while the algorithm is great for luma, it's not good for chroma. In luma, superres enhances small details and edges by increasing contrast (darks become darker, lights become lighter at image transients), and the same happens to the chroma layers. However, in chroma, light vs dark is actually green vs red, or blue vs yellow, etc. When the edges have their contrast increased, you get increased wrong-color ringing.

In actual content, I haven't found any live action image that actually looks different with SR on or off. In cartoon, it can help in many situations, but also increase artifacts and ringing in others. It's also quite dependent on source quality. All in all, I don't find the performance hit to be really worth it.
Ok, thanks for the feedback!

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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
I'll have to do some testing to see when this changed, but I just watched my first PAL DVD in some time, and noticed that srcHeight is using the cropped values again, instead of the source height, so it ended up using my NTSC profile instead.

As a temporary fix I've had to change my profile rules to use uncroppedsrcHeight. (I still think that should be how srcHeight always works...)
Where did we do the previous discussion about this? In the bug tracker? I don't remember the conclusion of the our previous discussion, so I'm not sure right now if this behaviour is as intended or not.

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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Fair enough, but does it matter if we don't like Aero and have it disabled in W7?
It doesn't matter much if you only use fullscreen exclusive mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmone View Post
I think I've found the 3D issue for me in MC and it has something to do with "Bookmarks" and how playback is commenced (100% repeatable):
- If I play the 3D MKV from the beginning it works.
- If I seek while playing it works.
- If I double stop (reset book mark) then playback will commence from the beginning and 3D works
- If I stop/play (so playback commences from where I left off and not from the begining) it will go to SBS / using D3D9. If I try to force D3D11 in the madVR Settings it will crash MC.

My test setup was as simple as I could get it:
- Fresh install of madVR with default settings (but Windows Exclusive unchecked) No other changes
- Put Win 10 64-Bit Desktop into 3D
- Put the nVidia Control Panel into 1080/23hz/3D (so no switching is required by madVR)
- Commence playback testing
Ok, that's interesting. My best guess right now is that in the stop/play situation the decoder sends at least one frame in 2D and only switches to 3D a little bit later. That's just a guess, though. Can you create a debug log from the stop/play situation?

When you force D3D11 in the madVR settings, do you see anything at all, before it crashes? E.g. if you enable the OSD (Ctrl+J) before activating D3D11 mode, do you see the OSD for a short time before the crash? If so, please let me know which refresh rate the OSD lists. Is it near to 23.976? Or is it near to 47.952?

Quote:
Originally Posted by har3inger View Post
I have a bug on my setup that cropped up recently, after the 90.x builds, not sure if anyone else experiences this:

Subtitles rendered in black bars will play at 1x speed even if video is set to 2x speed. Leads to desync.
Is it a new bug with v0.90.x? That would surprise me. Which subtitle renderer are we talking about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by omarank View Post
I think you can create Row/Column Interleaved and Checkerboard frames from stereo frames and output as 2D, just like you output SBS as a fallback method. For passive 3D sets, Row/Column Interleaved output should result in higher image quality as compared to frame packed 3D where the TV will use its internal processing to convert to Interleaved.
That would produce higher quality only if the output would be full resolution. For that to work, I'd have to switch to e.g. a 2D 1920x2160 mode (for row interleaved). And I have no API to tell the GPU to do that, so the user would have to create a 1920x2160 custom resolution. There's also no API to signal "row interleaved" to the TV, so the user would still have to manually switch to TV to "row interleaved" mode, if the TV has such a manual option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XTrojan View Post
It's basically 23fps 2160p, but when you enable "side by side" or "over under", vertical or horizontal resolution gets cut in half as it combines two sides into 3D or over/under into 3D. Most TVs should support this
Maybe you're right about 4K sets, I don't know. But I don't think many 1080p sets will accept a 2160p signal, or am I wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by XTrojan View Post
I have a question regarding the upcoming UHD Blurays.

Will Dolby HDR and HDR10 be supported? And how will ripping work with HDCP 2.2 protection?

I heard that currently Nvidia nor AMD doesn't support HDR, but upcoming AMD Polaris will.
The key question is whether you will be able to play UHD Blu-Rays with madVR *at all*. It comes with a new copy protection, which isn't cracked yet.

If you somehow manage to unprotect UHD Blu-Rays, then madVR should have no problem playing HDR10 content. At the moment HDR passthrough to the display is not supported yet, but probably will be sooner or later. Right now you can already let madVR convert HDR10 content to a format current displays can understand, and that in high quality.

As long as I don't have technical Dolby Vision documentation, I can't support it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apgood View Post
Got 3D working in jriver mc using amd r9 270x. I needed to install crimson 16.1 hotfix, latest MadVR and LAV. The other thing I had to do in my projector is swap which eye comes first from "normal" to "swapped".

At first the video was a bit jerky but once I reduced all the scaling algorithms to no more than about super-xbr 100 or was fine.
Sounds good. Try a few different movies. It's possible that the eye swapping depends on the movie. If that's the case, either MakeMKV or LAV need a minor fix/update to solve that issue.
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Old 15th January 2016, 18:35   #35355  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
That would produce higher quality only if the output would be full resolution. For that to work, I'd have to switch to e.g. a 2D 1920x2160 mode (for row interleaved). And I have no API to tell the GPU to do that, so the user would have to create a 1920x2160 custom resolution. There's also no API to signal "row interleaved" to the TV, so the user would still have to manually switch to TV to "row interleaved" mode, if the TV has such a manual option.
No, I believe there is no need to output 1920x2160. If I understand it correctly, you will have to fit View 1 in every odd line and View 2 in every even line in a regular 1920x1080 2D frame. So the vertical resolution of both views will be reduced to 540. When you output this kind of frame to a Passive 3D TV (Row Interleaved Type), the user shouldn’t even need to tell the TV about the signal type. The user can just put on their 3D glasses and enjoy 3D. Similarly, for Column Interleaved Type Passive 3D TV, the horizontal resolution of both views will be reduced to 960 when you output Column Interleaved 1920x1080 2D frames.

I said the user would get higher quality this way because when a Passive TV accepts frame packed 3D, the stereo frames will pass through its 3D processing engine when getting converted to the Interleaved format. From what I have seen, when 3D is enabled in any 3D TV, the image quality suddenly degrades due to whatever processing they do to the frames. In the above suggested method, the TV will display the Row Interleaved frames like normal 2D images and Passive 3D glasses will do the magic. Also, 10 bit output will work as well.

Row Interleaved, Column Interleaved can be kept as 3D output options in madVR settings. Passive 3D TV users can select the appropriate type depending upon what kind of Passive TV they have. For Active 3D TV users, frame packed 3D will be the best option.
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Old 15th January 2016, 18:38   #35356  |  Link
XTrojan
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Maybe you're right about 4K sets, I don't know. But I don't think many 1080p sets will accept a 2160p signal, or am I wrong?
My 6y old Samsung supports this as well, the reason people wanted Frame-packed back then was because it cuts resolution in half, if it's a 1080p TV the quality becomes much worse.

Today with 4k sets that weakness isn't there anymore, 4k monoscopic tv sets don't have that weakness either.

With that in mind, frame-packed is the original format for 3D, if you can get it to playback perfectly without glitches i'd choose frame-packed, the only issue is compability as 3D MVC mode for AMD/Nvidia drivers is limited and seems to crash with 10bit output etc. The advantage with Side-by-Side 3D is that the TV handles everything and madvr can do same algoritms as it does to a 2D video.

Edit: You don't need to switch to 1920x2160, you just switch to 3840x2160, but when you switch to side by side the TV will "combine" right+left into one 3D video, by combining them both you lose half the resolution, which makes it 1920x2160.

Think of it as two 2D images, the 3D effect is one image above the other, that's what the TV basically does, but when doing so they both become same picture, aka half of the resolution gets lost either horizontally or vertically depending if it's side-by-side or over-under.

What stereoscopic player does is rendering the MVC and 2D at same time on left/right and then letting the TV convert them both into 3D. I'll try to explain with pictures later

Last edited by XTrojan; 15th January 2016 at 18:53.
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Old 15th January 2016, 19:01   #35357  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by omarank View Post
No, I believe there is no need to output 1920x2160. If I understand it correctly, you will have to fit View 1 in every odd line and View 2 in every even line in a regular 1920x1080 2D frame. So the vertical resolution of both views will be reduced to 540. When you output this kind of frame to a Passive 3D TV (Row Interleaved Type), the user shouldn’t even need to tell the TV about the signal type. The user can just put on their 3D glasses and enjoy 3D. Similarly, for Column Interleaved Type Passive 3D TV, the horizontal resolution of both views will be reduced to 960 when you output Column Interleaved 1920x1080 2D frames.

I said the user would get higher quality this way because when a Passive TV accepts frame packed 3D, the stereo frames will pass through its 3D processing engine when getting converted to the Interleaved format. From what I have seen, when 3D is enabled in any 3D TV, the image quality suddenly degrades due to whatever processing they do to the frames. In the above suggested method, the TV will display the Row Interleaved frames like normal 2D images and Passive 3D glasses will do the magic. Also, 10 bit output will work as well.

Row Interleaved, Column Interleaved can be kept as 3D output options in madVR settings. Passive 3D TV users can select the appropriate type depending upon what kind of Passive TV they have. For Active 3D TV users, frame packed 3D will be the best option.
Oh ok. I guess I didn't understand how passive 3D works. So basically you're saying that a passive 3D TV when looked at without glasses has lines 1, 3 and 5 for left eye and lines 2, 4 and 6 for right eye? So I would simply render as if it were 2D and the TV wouldn't even have to know that I'm sending 3D, the user would simply put on his glasses and that's all?

Implementing that should be relatively easy.

@Aleksoid1978, would that do the trick for your TV?

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Originally Posted by XTrojan View Post
My 6y old Samsung supports this as well, the reason people wanted Frame-packed back then was because it cuts resolution in half, if it's a 1080p TV the quality becomes much worse.
You mean your old Samsung supports 1080p side-by-side, but it doesn't support 3840x2160p23 side-by-side, does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by XTrojan View Post
Today with 4k sets that weakness isn't there anymore, 4k monoscopic tv sets don't have that weakness either.
Sure. For 4k sets side-by-side should work just fine. But the big majority of users are still using 1080p sets. Reading your previous posts I thought you were talking about sending 2160p23 side-by-side to 1080p sets. And I would be quite surprised if 1080p TVs accepted 2160p23 data. Do they?

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Originally Posted by XTrojan View Post
Think of it as two 2D images, the 3D effect is one image above the other, that's what the TV basically does, but when doing so they both become same picture, aka half of the resolution gets lost either horizontally or vertically depending if it's side-by-side or over-under.

What stereoscopic player does is rendering the MVC and 2D at same time on left/right and then letting the TV convert them both into 3D. I'll try to explain with pictures later
I'm rather confused. madVR already does side-by-side rendering by default *right now* if your TV doesn't support frame packed output, or if the OS has frame packed output disabled. So why are you explaining to me how side-by-side works when madVR already does it?
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Old 15th January 2016, 19:05   #35358  |  Link
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Originally Posted by XTrojan View Post
It's basically 23fps 2160p, but when you enable "side by side" or "over under", vertical or horizontal resolution gets cut in half as it combines two sides into 3D or over/under into 3D. Most TVs should support this, it doesn't require 3D planes either since one side = one eye, and subtitles are rendered at both. The downside is that 4k is needed otherwise it's gonna be something like 960x1080 or 1920x540, no software is needed as the TV does all of the work, the player only needs to show the MVC stream at right or left and 2D stream at other, with subtitles at both.
my TV clearly said no to 3D at UHD no matter what. all options are simply grayed out. and i can't blame the screen this is not a spec.
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Old 15th January 2016, 19:09   #35359  |  Link
XTrojan
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Oh ok. I guess I didn't understand how passive 3D works. So basically you're saying that a passive 3D TV when looked at without glasses has lines 1, 3 and 5 for left eye and lines 2, 4 and 6 for right eye? So I would simply render as if it were 2D and the TV wouldn't even have to know that I'm sending 3D, the user would simply put on his glasses and that's all?

Implementing that should be relatively easy.

@Aleksoid1978, would that do the trick for your TV?


You mean your old Samsung supports 1080p side-by-side, but it doesn't support 3840x2160p23 side-by-side, does it?


Sure. For 4k sets side-by-side should work just fine. But the big majority of users are still using 1080p sets. Reading your previous posts I thought you were talking about sending 2160p23 side-by-side to 1080p sets. And I would be quite surprised if 1080p TVs accepted 2160p23 data. Do they?


I'm rather confused. madVR already does side-by-side rendering by default *right now* if your TV doesn't support frame packed output, or if the OS has frame packed output disabled. So why are you explaining to me how side-by-side works when madVR already does it?
Because it's not a SBS encoding, it's a remux that's 2D but contains a MVC stream. I haven't checked newest MadVR, but I thought you needed SBS encoding for it to work? Can MadVR render the 2D and MVC streams seperate on right/left without engaging frame-packed mode but letting the TV do it? I have to test that, sorry :s.

And no 1080p sets can't playback 3D content without cutting resolution in half, making it look bad, frame-packing is still the goto for 1080p TV sets and only mode without degrading picture quality, Personally I just dislike frame-packing due to compability issues and buggyness of external content such as subtitles.

Last edited by XTrojan; 15th January 2016 at 19:14.
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Old 15th January 2016, 19:13   #35360  |  Link
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madVR's 3D mode (in collaboration with the latest LAV nightly) currently only works with mvc-in-mkv, nothing else. It does not work with side-by-side or top-bottom encoding. madVR will output said mvc-in-mkv over HDMI with the full 1080p resolution.

Last edited by sneaker_ger; 15th January 2016 at 19:21. Reason: deleted false HDMI 3D info
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

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