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Old 10th November 2019, 09:29   #1981  |  Link
marcomsousa
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HandBrake 1.3.0 Released

* Added support for reading AV1 via libdav1d

https://github.com/HandBrake/HandBrake/releases
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Old 10th November 2019, 16:25   #1982  |  Link
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A 4+ billion Ed Sheeran song had it up to to 2160p, but a 2+ billion Taylor swift song only has it up to 720p. I managed to find some Wired videos with a couple million views, that have AV1 though.
A YouTube engineer made a comment about people using YouTube as a radio station, but their licence requiring video, so ultra low bitrate AV1 being a kind of workaround for contractual obligations.

So it's possible that YouTube is measuring the bitrate/resolution of these views and prioritising the ones that are viewed at high quality, not just the ones that are viewed a lot. Just a guess though.
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Old 11th November 2019, 07:58   #1983  |  Link
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An interesting point Ronald made implies that AV1 has an intrinsic parallel scaling limitation due to an oversight during the encoder development (12:20 in the video), something to do with superblock boundaries.
The superblock boundary one to get superblock-row multithreading (an encoder-side-only version of partitions in vp8 or wavefront in hevc) is quite micro, because it is easily worked around by just ignoring the superblock edge's correctness and sacrifice your search' accuracy a tiny little bit. The frame multi-threading one is a bigger deal.
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Old 11th November 2019, 22:50   #1984  |  Link
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Originally Posted by dapperdan View Post
A YouTube engineer made a comment about people using YouTube as a radio station, but their licence requiring video, so ultra low bitrate AV1 being a kind of workaround for contractual obligations.

So it's possible that YouTube is measuring the bitrate/resolution of these views and prioritising the ones that are viewed at high quality, not just the ones that are viewed a lot. Just a guess though.
A lot of the "TV for radio" clips have super static backgrounds or just scrolling lyrics. So they should encode down super small with more advanced codecs and long GOPs.
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Old 18th November 2019, 23:09   #1985  |  Link
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When do you think Stadia using AV1 will be available?
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Old 19th November 2019, 00:00   #1986  |  Link
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When do you think Stadia using AV1 will be available?
Stadia is use cheap client cpu, so AV1 will be in next year for high-end cpu, and the follow year to cheap devices.. So 2 to 3 year for sure.

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Old 19th November 2019, 08:25   #1987  |  Link
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Stadia is use cheap client cpu, so AV1 will be in next year for high-end cpu, and the follow year to cheap devices.. So 2 to 3 year for sure.

Marco Sousa
There's nothing to suggest AV1 will be in either Samsung or Qualcomm's flagship SoC next year, Qualcomm still has yet to even join AOM when last I checked.

On the other hand the likes of Amlogic have plans to have AV1 in lower end chips for 2020, so you appear to be wrong on both counts.
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Old 19th November 2019, 18:18   #1988  |  Link
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Originally Posted by marcomsousa View Post
Stadia is use cheap client cpu, so AV1 will be in next year for high-end cpu, and the follow year to cheap devices.. So 2 to 3 year for sure.
On the decode side, maybe in a few years. But Does Stadia have a path to a good 4Kp60 encoder with sufficient efficiency and cost?

There is a lot of untapped potential in using how the game is rendered to drive encoder optimization that could help here (the game knows your motion vectors!). Not sure if anyone's researching that with AV1 currently.
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Old 19th November 2019, 18:55   #1989  |  Link
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There's nothing to suggest AV1 will be in either Samsung or Qualcomm's flagship SoC next year, Qualcomm still has yet to even join AOM when last I checked.

On the other hand the likes of Amlogic have plans to have AV1 in lower end chips for 2020, so you appear to be wrong on both counts.
So far, all the announced AV1 chips have been for living room devices, and nothing for mobile, correct?

Living room has a lot more breathing room for power consumption, thermal management, and thus process. The mobile chips are where every extra transistor costs the most.

Of course, having a working HW decoder at all is a huge milestone, even if it might take a bit for those to migrate into mobile SoCs.
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Old 20th November 2019, 03:47   #1990  |  Link
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i wouldn't wait for them to announce a hardware decoder they may just add them or evne ship them already without a word and without any way to access them.

as an example the "first" nvidia card with an HEVC main10 decoder was the 960 this card has a VP9 profile 0 decoder too it was not possible to access it for about a year or so.

the 960 was release in 22.01.2015
VP9 was finalised 17.06.2013
that's just 17 months
i dare to say that AV1 has far more attraction then VP9

AV1 is 19 month old so if someone really wanted to they could have added it and it wouldn't be the first time they made it public which may sound odd at first but if it can't be used anyway it may just be a better this way.

Quote:
There is a lot of untapped potential in using how the game is rendered to drive encoder optimization that could help here (the game knows your motion vectors!). Not sure if anyone's researching that with AV1 currently.
using multiply frames for encoding is a very bad thing in this case because latency is very important in this task there is a reason the currently released stadia is at best a very poor joke they want money for.

this only counts for lookahead which should be completely avoided if possible.
and how would you even access these information from the game in the first place.
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Old 20th November 2019, 13:16   #1991  |  Link
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So far, all the announced AV1 chips have been for living room devices, and nothing for mobile, correct?
He was talking Stadia which uses a Chromecast in its founder bundle - that is a living room/wall powered device.
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Old 20th November 2019, 15:26   #1992  |  Link
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stadia "works" with pretty much every device. you don't need a chromecast a phone can do it so can a web browser on the PC. there is missing support for iOS and such but what ever.
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Old 20th November 2019, 16:24   #1993  |  Link
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New RAV1E build out with big performance improvements when using tiling: https://github.com/xiph/rav1e/releases/tag/20191120
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Old 20th November 2019, 17:24   #1994  |  Link
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stadia "works" with pretty much every device. you don't need a chromecast a phone can do it so can a web browser on the PC. there is missing support for iOS and such but what ever.
It would drain battery tout suite, but dav1d 0.5.1 is more than fast enough to decode 1080p60 on any iPhone or iPad from the last 2-3 years, perhaps even 4K (though 4K60 seems doubtful).

Even the less impressive Cortex big cores on Snapdragon could handle 1080p60.

Obviously lacking ASIC decoder support is not ideal, but at least it is some support rather than nothing.

Heres hoping future improvements to the GPU code in dav1d will make decoding even more efficient for pre-ASIC devices than the initial GSoC 2019 efforts.
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Old 20th November 2019, 21:35   #1995  |  Link
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i don't even see any use case for stadia and AV1 now.
even if the end device is able to decode it you still have to real time low latency encode it which is just not possible at 4K60 UHD.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 17:20   #1996  |  Link
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Visionular AV1 encoder AURORA demo video
http://35.185.250.137:8080/#
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Old 23rd November 2019, 19:10   #1997  |  Link
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Isn't it "Tears of Steel"?
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Old 23rd November 2019, 19:41   #1998  |  Link
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
i wouldn't wait for them to announce a hardware decoder they may just add them or evne ship them already without a word and without any way to access them.

as an example the "first" nvidia card with an HEVC main10 decoder was the 960 this card has a VP9 profile 0 decoder too it was not possible to access it for about a year or so.

the 960 was release in 22.01.2015
VP9 was finalised 17.06.2013
that's just 17 months
i dare to say that AV1 has far more attraction then VP9

AV1 is 19 month old so if someone really wanted to they could have added it and it wouldn't be the first time they made it public which may sound odd at first but if it can't be used anyway it may just be a better this way.


using multiply frames for encoding is a very bad thing in this case because latency is very important in this task there is a reason the currently released stadia is at best a very poor joke they want money for.

this only counts for lookahead which should be completely avoided if possible.
and how would you even access these information from the game in the first place.
So will the GPUs releasing next year from Nvidia and AMD probably decode AV1?
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Old 23rd November 2019, 20:10   #1999  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Adonisds View Post
So will the GPUs releasing next year from Nvidia and AMD probably decode AV1?
AMD has historically been very slow adopting new codecs, while NVIDIA has usually pushed it decently fast. But any speculation is just that.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 20:53   #2000  |  Link
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AV1 has a major problem i forgot.
they changed the bit stream about 10 month ago. i don't have detail if thsi affects decoding but as far as i understand yes it did back then.

maybe AMD cares more now since they are now entering the mobile market. taking recent development crashing with hardware decoding and the lying with polaris into account it will be intel or nvidia first.

it's just speculation anyway.
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