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Old 15th January 2010, 17:37   #1961  |  Link
pirlouy
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@Alante: It looks like you don't know anything about smoothness, so that's why STaRGaZeR told you you were wrong.

I don't pretend to know this well, but I know one thing: in order not to have judder (or jitter ?), your display has to have a refresh rate which is a multiplier (or so) of video frame rate.

FYI, all recent TVs have 24 and 50Hz support, and it's often used. But I can understand you don't believe it, since you don't understand it (for now).
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Old 15th January 2010, 18:09   #1962  |  Link
mikelebron
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Disable 32 bit float as RC only accepts up to 32 bit integer... other then that setting WASPI as the default output works fine...

Keep in mind I am using all 32 bit direct show filters... are you using 64 bit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alante View Post
Off-topic: How did you manage to use RC with WASAPI on Win 7 64 bit + X-FI XM?



Tried many things but didn't manage to get some sound from it.

PS.Nice Mod on your AT.
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Old 15th January 2010, 18:23   #1963  |  Link
STaRGaZeR
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Originally Posted by Alante View Post
Care to detail, or you just got an idea while looking at stars and now sit on it? No, I'm not wrong - only have 2 x Refresh Rates on my LCD monitor: 60 Hz and 75 Hz, but 75 Hz gives no benefit, even makes things worst by adding more input lag. It's a known fact that most LCD monitors operate at 60 Hz for optimal performance and give no benefit beyond that. And yes, I know they released some models capable of 120 Hz (yet capable is not the correct word - since it can't be compared to the one from CRT's), but unfortunately comes with a 'TN panel' so I doubt your "this is Doom9. Lots of people here and in other forums have that kind of equipment" argument can stand on this part.


Look, I have four selectable options: 60, 100, 110 and 120. Ever heard of PowerStrip BTW?

As said, you don't understand a thing about smoothness and other things. Gives no benefit for what? Optimal perfomance? Do you know how the screen is "refreshed" in LCD vs CRT? Capable monitors? Do you know why we need a refresh rate that is equal or a multiple of the original material FPS? Do you know, or at least have seen, the implications of 60 more images per second in games or the judder free playback of 24, 30 and 60 FPS material when using a true 120Hz monitor? Give me a break.

Seriously, do some research and buy some stuff before you call everything except what you have or consider good useless. We are not genius, but don't think that because you have a crappy 19" monitor with input lag at 75Hz gives you some kind of authority or knowledge to come here and spread all that BS...
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Originally Posted by Manao View Post
That way, you have xxxx[p|i]yyy, where xxxx is the vertical resolution, yyy is the temporal resolution, and 'i' says the image has been irremediably destroyed.

Last edited by STaRGaZeR; 15th January 2010 at 18:32.
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Old 15th January 2010, 20:17   #1964  |  Link
Alante
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Originally Posted by mikelebron View Post
Disable 32 bit float as RC only accepts up to 32 bit integer... other then that setting WASPI as the default output works fine...

Keep in mind I am using all 32 bit direct show filters... are you using 64 bit?
No, all 32 bit filters, since i use KMPlayer and tried even 32 or lower but still - No sound.



Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
As said, you don't understand a thing about smoothness and other things. Gives no benefit for what? Optimal perfomance? Do you know how the screen is "refreshed" in LCD vs CRT? Capable monitors? Do you know why we need a refresh rate that is equal or a multiple of the original material FPS? Do you know, or at least have seen, the implications of 60 more images per second in games or the judder free playback of 24, 30 and 60 FPS material when using a true 120Hz monitor? Give me a break.
I sure do and more then sure that you don't. Forcing 120 Hz on 60 Hz capable LCD will increase the input lag considerably and may also flicker the image. That's why you have to active VSync for some games or limit their FPS at 60, or you could play it at 100 FPS like this...

As for 60+ FPS in a game, funny one... you talk as if you're among the few that had that privilege... as if CRT monitors never existed. Guess you're really young to conclude that, but on my younger days CRT's were a STANDARD and most of us had CRT's capable of 85 Hz - 120 Hz. Even now, you might see some at some poor families (since SH CRT's are still the cheapest option), or at some people that couldn't let go a good technology, that got replaced by one that offer more ergonomics and less potential. Ask an older friend, a parent if you think I'm lying.

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Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
Seriously, do some research and buy some stuff before you call everything except what you have or consider good useless. We are not genius, but don't think that because you have a crappy 19" monitor with input lag at 75Hz gives you some kind of authority or knowledge to come here and spread all that BS...
What?! Where did i say that everything except what i have, or consider good is useless? It's true I had some subjective opinions, but I admitted that... and my LCD is not crappy, when I got it was a very good LCD. Could have gotten 2 x 22 LCD's with TN panel at what I paid for it and now those are crappy (i.m.h.o.). Don't care about their 2 ms on Gray to Gray, a TN and his viewing angles can sure give a crappy experience, for my tastes.

And it's not bullshit, learn how most LCD work:

Quote:
If you have an LCD monitor, you may not be able to adjust the refresh rate. This is because most LCD monitors come with a standard refresh rate that is well above the "flicker" point. LCD monitors produce less flicker than CRT monitors because the pixels on an LCD screen stay lit longer than CRT monitors before they noticeably fade.

The pixels in a standard colour LCD screen are activated directly by signals from the video card. That is to say that they are not activated serially by electron guns, as is the case with a CRT monitor. Moreover, they do not fade out if they are not reactivated regularly. Each pixel has its own connection to the video card. The pixels are turned on by signals from the video card, and stay on until other signals arrive which make them turn off or change their state. Because if this, many LCD's can have a default refresh rate set as low as 60Hz yet still do not appear to flicker. (A CRT monitor set to use a low refresh rate of 60Hz would flicker noticeably.)
Source...

As for the models that can operate at 120 Hz, they're very few in number, recently released and use a TN panel (if i remember correctly).
You didn't even bother to look/inform-yourself and confront me with a vague and insulting answer.

My last job was design/marketing related (IT domain) but I also worked as an IT technician, so yeah I have my share of knowledge regarding this subject. I know how they're made, how they work and even know how to bullshit (marketing tricks) uninformed people with details regarding Dynamic Contrast, response time (2 ms grey to grey), but ignore to mention important details like the viewing angles and the panel of a specific LCD.

Last edited by Alante; 15th January 2010 at 20:20.
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Old 15th January 2010, 23:00   #1965  |  Link
pirlouy
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@Alante: sorry to interfere in your discussion with STaRGaZeR, but I feel obliged to support him. You can think 60Hz is the best refresh screen (that's why I thought at first), you're just wrong and you don't know it yet.
But as I don't want to hijack this thread, I let you read this thread, or rather this one dedicated to smoothness...
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Old 15th January 2010, 23:15   #1966  |  Link
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Since STaRGaZeR can switch between 100 and 120 Hz he can play back 25 FPS and 24 FPS content without any judder. I guess it works well for 24000/1001 FPS as well. I guess 600 Hz would be ideal because it divisible without remainder by 24, 25, 30, 50 and 60 and thereby covers all commonly used framerates. This isn't that important with games where you generally have framerates north of 30 FPS anyway, but with videos where you're generally stuck with 24 or 25 FPS having a multiple is very important for smooth playback.
Personally I'd switch from my 60 Hz LCD to a 120 Hz without hesitation if someone offered me a halfway decent unit. It's just not in my budget right now.

Last edited by nurbs; 15th January 2010 at 23:18.
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Old 16th January 2010, 00:22   #1967  |  Link
Alante
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Originally Posted by pirlouy View Post
@Alante: sorry to interfere in your discussion with STaRGaZeR, but I feel obliged to support him. You can think 60Hz is the best refresh screen (that's why I thought at first), you're just wrong and you don't know it yet.
But as I don't want to hijack this thread, I let you read this thread, or rather this one dedicated to smoothness...
I know my English needs some improving (since it's not my native language) but I'm definitely not the only one with this problem. I NEVER SAID 60 Hz is the best refresh screen... what i said is that most LCD Monitors or capable of 60 Hz and force 100 Hz on those LCD's (the once for which 60 Hz is a standard) is just wrong and even stupid (as in - the ones that do that, don't really know what their doing). And advising others, misleading them to do the same and saying this is the way to go (as if most LCD's are capable of 100 Hz and only few or stuck at 60 Hz)... well, I can't agree with that.

The refresh rate is one the main reasons, why some people still keep their CRT's, fallowed by viewing angles, contrast and color reproduction. So I know refresh rate is important, especially for 3D but honestly I doubt most of you (even if this doom9 or other video forums/shacks) already have this monitor which was barley announced in December 2009. The other two were available earlier of 2009 but they use a crappy TN panel.

Last edited by Alante; 16th January 2010 at 00:24.
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Old 16th January 2010, 01:13   #1968  |  Link
STaRGaZeR
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Originally Posted by Alante View Post
snip
Listen. There are several points in your posts that are so wrong in the concept that the correct and detailed explanation would need a very long post, and I'm not going to write that. Use Google if you want. Just some random corrections.

About the "flicker point" that article talks about. LCD will not flicker. Ever. The only possible flickering in LCD comes from the backlight, if the monitor has some crappy CCFLs or LEDs in there. Do not confuse screen flickering with backlight flickering or flickering caused by low FPS material.

I'd be amazed if you could force 120Hz in a 60Hz monitor. Really amazed. Mostly because you won't be able to do that.

About games, yes, I have (and had) that privilege. I've had 120Hz CRTs and LCDs. Talking about age is a bad habit, because I'm probably older than you.

I have a true 120Hz monitor, a 2233RZ. I've had it for 6 or more months. It's indeed a crappy TN panel, but that's the price you have to pay for 120Hz right now. Please don't tell me what this monitor can and can't do. I know it first hand. That Acer is also TN.

I have to insist: stop spreading BS.

@nurbs

The refresh rate is almost exactly 120Hz. 24000/1001, 30000/1001, etc. material is almost perfect, each 8,333s a frame is repeated 6 times instead of 5 (considering 24000/1001). It's very hard to notice it but it's there. I'd need 119,88Hz, something Windows or ATI don't offer right now. PowerStrip does the trick though, then you have indeed 100% judder free playback.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manao View Post
That way, you have xxxx[p|i]yyy, where xxxx is the vertical resolution, yyy is the temporal resolution, and 'i' says the image has been irremediably destroyed.
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Old 16th January 2010, 02:35   #1969  |  Link
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Im using MPC-HC... try a different player and decoder..

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No, all 32 bit filters, since i use KMPlayer and tried even 32 or lower but still - No sound.

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Old 16th January 2010, 09:02   #1970  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Alante View Post
And it's not bullshit, learn how most LCD work:

Quote:
This is because most LCD monitors come with a standard refresh rate that is well above the "flicker" point. LCD monitors produce less flicker than CRT monitors because the pixels on an LCD screen stay lit longer than CRT monitors before they noticeably fade.
What a great article. These two sentences alone contain 3 false informations!!

(1) 60Hz is not "well above the flicker point".
(2) LCD monitors don't produce "less flicker", they don't produce any flicker at all, regardless of which refresh rate is used.
(3) Pixels on an LCD screen don't "stay lit longer", they stay lit all the time, with no decrease in brightness whatsoever.

Summed up, all LCD monitors (except some rare new ones with blinking/scanning backlights) are sample-and-hold type displays. You could use 10Hz refresh rate and there would still be zero flicker.

@Alante, if you quote an article to proof your point, you should choose an article which is technically accurate...

The sense of changing the refresh rate for video playback has nothing to do with flicker, but with perceived motion smoothness. If you watch 24fps content with 60Hz refresh rate (doesn't matter if it's LCD or CRT), there will be some motion judder, due to the 3:2 pulldown. If your display supports a refresh rate which is a straight multiplier of the source frame rate, that is the preferred video playback setup cause that way you can avoid the 3:2 pulldown and get 100% smooth playback.

If you play back an NTSC 24fps* source, ideal refresh rates would be 24Hz*, 48Hz*, 72Hz*, 96Hz*, 120Hz*. If you play back a PAL source, ideal refresh rates would be 25Hz, 50Hz, 75Hz, 100Hz. If you can force your display to use those refresh rates, you'll get smoother motion.

Input lag does not matter for video playback, since you can easily adjust audio delay. Video playback is not like gaming. For gaming input lag is important, for video playback it's not.

Can we close the refresh rate discussion now?

*) NTSC uses a 1.001 divisor, so it's not really 24.000, but 24.000/1.001 = 23.976 etc...
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Old 16th January 2010, 11:29   #1971  |  Link
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Stargazer, that monitor is the one compatible with Nvidia's 3D stuff, right? Does it also do 100 Hz? How does an LCD change refresh rates, the pixels just get updated faster/slower? I was under the impression that LCDs only had one fixed rate (120 Hz in your case). What it could take in, that's a different thing than the actual refresh rate of the screen.
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Old 16th January 2010, 12:40   #1972  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
Listen. There are several points in your posts that are so wrong in the concept that the correct and detailed explanation would need a very long post, and I'm not going to write that. Use Google if you want. Just some random corrections.

About the "flicker point" that article talks about. LCD will not flicker. Ever. The only possible flickering in LCD comes from the backlight, if the monitor has some crappy CCFLs or LEDs in there. Do not confuse screen flickering with backlight flickering or flickering caused by low FPS material.

I'd be amazed if you could force 120Hz in a 60Hz monitor. Really amazed. Mostly because you won't be able to do that.

About games, yes, I have (and had) that privilege. I've had 120Hz CRTs and LCDs. Talking about age is a bad habit, because I'm probably older than you.

I have a true 120Hz monitor, a 2233RZ. I've had it for 6 or more months. It's indeed a crappy TN panel, but that's the price you have to pay for 120Hz right now. Please don't tell me what this monitor can and can't do. I know it first hand. That Acer is also TN.
First of all, you own a monitor with TN panel and lecture me about quality. No thanx, I'd rather have a monitor with a good panel and decent viewing angles... oh yeah, and that Acer is in same situation, my bad...


Quote:
@Alante, if you quote an article to proof your point, you should choose an article which is technically accurate...
I would have explain this with my own words, but English is not my native language. Take the above example, when I say you shouldn't enforce 120 Hz on LCD's with a standard 60 Hz and "pirlouy" understand, that I think 60 Hz monitors are best. That's why I used an article which seemed ok, unless you get specific with every detail. The correct word would be "Tearing effect" not "Flicker"...i was referring to tearing when I said this:

I NEVER SAID 60 Hz is the best refresh screen... what i said is that most LCD Monitors or capable of 60 Hz and force 100 Hz on those LCD's (the once for which 60 Hz is a standard) is just wrong and even stupid (as in - the ones that do that, don't really know what their doing). And advising others, misleading them to do the same and saying this is the way to go (as if most LCD's are capable of 100 Hz and only few or stuck at 60 Hz)... well, I can't agree with that.

Quote:
It is an unfortunate fact of computer graphics that if you disable VSync, your graphics card and monitor will go out of synch. Whenever your FPS exceeds the refresh rate (e.g. 120 FPS on a 60Hz screen), or in general at any point during which your graphics card is working faster than your monitor, the graphics card produces more frames in the frame buffer than the monitor can actually display at any one time, so the end result is that when the monitor goes to get a new frame from the primary buffer of the graphics card during VBI, the frame may be made up of two or more different frames overlapping each other. This results in the onscreen image appearing to be slightly out of alignment or 'torn' in parts whenever there is any movement - and thus it is referred to as Tearing. An example of this is provided in the simulated screenshot below. Look closely at the urinals and the sink - portions of them are out of alignment due to tearing:


Quote:
Can we close the refresh rate discussion now?
Yeh, sorry for OT, madVR - high quality video renderer - when you put it like that and try it in practice, the discussion derived from this subject leads to other familiar aspects like Color Calibration/LUT profiles and now refresh rate.

Last edited by Alante; 16th January 2010 at 12:46.
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Old 16th January 2010, 13:13   #1973  |  Link
STaRGaZeR
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Originally Posted by Andy o View Post
Stargazer, that monitor is the one compatible with Nvidia's 3D stuff, right? Does it also do 100 Hz? How does an LCD change refresh rates, the pixels just get updated faster/slower? I was under the impression that LCDs only had one fixed rate (120 Hz in your case). What it could take in, that's a different thing than the actual refresh rate of the screen.
Yes and yes. Windows will let you choose 60, 100, 110 or 120Hz in the typical refresh rate selection list. Any monitor with true 100Hz or 120Hz support (not like those HDTVs that take 50/60Hz signals and insert interpolated frames to get 100/120Hz) will be compatible with 3D, with 60 and 50FPS per eye per second respectively.

When you're at xHz refresh rate the pixels can be updated x times per second. The ability to change or accept certain refresh rates depends of the monitor. When set to those xHz, the monitor and the graphics card will be locked at those xHz. It's the graphics card and/or the applications used responsability to adapt other contents to that rate, since that's the only one that's going to be sent to the monitor. That's why you have sync algorithms in all renderers, to adapt any source to the monitors' refresh rate, repeating or skipping frames to maintain sync with audio. Some of them can change the pixel clock, effectively changing the refresh rate to adapt the monitor to the video instead of the video to the monitor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alante View Post
First of all, you own a monitor with TN panel and lecture me about quality. No thanx, I'd rather have a monitor with a good panel and decent viewing angles... oh yeah, and that Acer is in same situation, my bad...
Good job finding a way to attack me instead of the argument. But yes, I can do that because that's only one of my monitors. I know how good PVA and IPS panels look like

So now it's about tearing. Yeah right. I'd lecture you about the experience of playing with constant, vsync'ed 120FPS in a 120Hz monitor vs 60FPS in a 60Hz monitor, but I won't do that because that's completely off-topic and this is a video related forum. Also you'll probably start talking about not related things like input lag, ghosting, etc.

Summing it up without going off-topic: you said "It's an LCD, so there's no point in changing the refresh rate beyond or lower then 60 Hz". That's just wrong, as me and others have told you.
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That way, you have xxxx[p|i]yyy, where xxxx is the vertical resolution, yyy is the temporal resolution, and 'i' says the image has been irremediably destroyed.
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Old 16th January 2010, 13:21   #1974  |  Link
madshi
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That's why I used an article which seemed ok
It's not ok, unfortunately. It's a bad and incorrect article.

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Originally Posted by Alante View Post
what i said is that most LCD Monitors or capable of 60 Hz and force 100 Hz on those LCD's (the once for which 60 Hz is a standard) is just wrong and even stupid
If you want to play PAL video, which is natively 50Hz, forcing your LCD display to 100Hz (if it supports this refresh rate) is actually not wrong/stupid, but it's right/clever, because playing PAL video with 60Hz results in bad motion judder, while playing PAL video with 100Hz results in smooth motion. So what you're saying is very wrong for PAL video playback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alante View Post
It is an unfortunate fact of computer graphics that if you disable VSync [...]
All video renderers (try to) enforce VSync internally. So that whole TweakGuides article you quoted is totally useless when talking about video playback.

Look, you come here with all that game related information (disabling VSync, input lag). You need to understand that video playback is very different to game rendering. Nobody disables VSync for video playback, and input lag doesn't matter for video playback, either. What does matter for video playback, is that you try to match the display's refresh rate to the source frame rate. And that's a concept which you don't seem to understand. This concept is only needed for video playback, not for games. So if you want to learn how to do video playback properly, first throw away all your games "knowledge" and then listen to people who have actual experience with optimizing video playback quality. It's a different world, and it follows different rules...
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Old 16th January 2010, 13:36   #1975  |  Link
leeperry
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talking about games, I can't quite believe how stuttery games in MAME are(yes I use a matching refresh rate)...I wish they'd make a Reclock/Trimension edition, maybe some day

Last edited by leeperry; 16th January 2010 at 13:42.
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Old 16th January 2010, 14:11   #1976  |  Link
Alante
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Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
Y

Good job finding a way to attack me instead of the argument. But yes, I can do that because that's only one of my monitors. I know how good PVA and IPS panels look like

So now it's about tearing. Yeah right. I'd lecture you about the experience of playing with constant, vsync'ed 120FPS in a 120Hz monitor vs 60FPS in a 60Hz monitor, but I won't do that because that's completely off-topic and this is a video related forum. Also you'll probably start talking about not related things like input lag, ghosting, etc.
Nice one, if I consider TN panels a crappy choice, that means I'm attacking you... sure... TN panel will always be the among the worst solutions as far as I'm concern.

I rarely play FPS games now, so don't really care... and when I did i had a CRT monitor. For the 3'rd time, I DIDN'T SAY 60 HZ is THE BEST OPTION, what i said is that most LCD Monitors or capable of 60 Hz and force 100 Hz on those LCD's (the once for which 60 Hz is a standard) is just wrong and even stupid (as in - the ones that do that, don't really know what their doing). And advising others, misleading them to do the same and saying this is the way to go (as if most LCD's are capable of 100 Hz and only few or stuck at 60 Hz)... well, I can't agree with that.


I seriously doubt many people from here have a monitor like yours. And it's not cause they can't afford it since is not really expensive, but because it has a TN panel. This being said regarding LCD monitors - not HDTV/Projectors.

Quote:
If you want to play PAL video, which is natively 50Hz, forcing your LCD display to 100Hz (if it supports this refresh rate) is actually not wrong/stupid, but it's right/clever, because playing PAL video with 60Hz results in bad motion judder, while playing PAL video with 100Hz results in smooth motion. So what you're saying is very wrong for PAL video playback.
WHY DO YOU PEOPLE KEEEP REPEATING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN as if MOST LCD's that where made until now have a standard of 100 HZ. MY EXACT QUOTE:

Quote:
I NEVER SAID 60 Hz is the best refresh screen... what i said is that most LCD Monitors or capable of 60 Hz and force 100 Hz on those LCD's (the once for which 60 Hz is a standard) is just wrong and even stupid (as in - the ones that do that, don't really know what their doing). And advising others, misleading them to do the same and saying this is the way to go (as if most LCD's are capable of 100 Hz and only few or stuck at 60 Hz)... well, I can't agree with that.
How many LCD Monitors are there, capable of 100 HZ - 120 HZ???? 4 - most released last year, even in December. If I'd make a pool about owners of LCD monitors, I seriously doubt 90% of doom9 forum will say they own those crappy TN panels based LCD.

My videos (the once encoded correctly) play smooth, don't have any problem there what so ever. I had a bad presumption regarding your video render, presuming it could render old/badly encoded videos with a better pixel fusion, based on the demonstration from the 1'st page, but in practice that personal theory was absent. For TV content, I have a TV and also have a console, don't use my PC for that. Of course, this are personal preferences, since I talk about what I do, can't be objective with my preferences saying that most do the same (also repeated this several times). As for being objective regarding LCD monitors, it's proven fact that most LCD monitor operate at 60 Hz, since LCD monitors weren't launched in 2009, only few with TN panel at 120 Hz where launched then and only few could have those as well (pretty logical).
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Old 16th January 2010, 14:38   #1977  |  Link
STaRGaZeR
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Originally Posted by Alante View Post
I seriously doubt many people from here have a monitor like yours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alante View Post
How many LCD Monitors are there, capable of 100 HZ - 120 HZ???? 4 - most released last year, even in December. If I'd make a pool about owners of LCD monitors, I seriously doubt 90% of doom9 forum will say they own those crappy TN panels based LCD.
I'm still trying to understand why and if this is relevant to the discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alante View Post
My videos (the once encoded correctly) play smooth, don't have any problem there what so ever. I had a bad presumption regarding your video render, presuming it could render old/badly encoded videos with a better pixel fusion, based on the demonstration from the 1'st page, but in practice that personal theory was absent.
Badly encoded videos, better pixel fusion... OMG. Go read some wiki kid, paying special attention to this, because 99% if not all videos you can get use it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manao View Post
That way, you have xxxx[p|i]yyy, where xxxx is the vertical resolution, yyy is the temporal resolution, and 'i' says the image has been irremediably destroyed.
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Old 16th January 2010, 18:43   #1978  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Alante View Post
For the 3'rd time
You can repeat your misinformation 100 times, it won't change the fact that it's wrong.

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Originally Posted by Alante View Post
How many LCD Monitors are there, capable of 100 HZ - 120 HZ????
The general rule in video playback is to match source frame rate and display refresh rate. That doesn't mean that 100Hz or 120Hz are needed. As I said before, for NTSC video 24Hz would do just fine, or 48Hz or 72Hz. Or for PAL e.g. 50Hz or 75Hz. If a given display supports 100Hz or 120Hz, those are good choices, too. On the other hand, 60Hz is *not* a good choice for movie watching.

And btw, who told you that watching movies on a computer monitor would be a good idea? For movie watching you should use a display which is capable of using refresh rates that match the usual movie frame rates.

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Originally Posted by Alante View Post
WHY DO YOU PEOPLE KEEEP REPEATING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN
Because "we people" were naive enough to hope that you would be able to learn. But since it seems that our hope was wrong, I'd appreciate if you could stop posting in "my" thread, because honestly you've posted enough misinformation in the last few pages. Thanks.
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Old 16th January 2010, 20:30   #1979  |  Link
Alante
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
You can repeat your misinformation 100 times, it won't change the fact that it's wrong.


The general rule in video playback is to match source frame rate and display refresh rate. That doesn't mean that 100Hz or 120Hz are needed. As I said before, for NTSC video 24Hz would do just fine, or 48Hz or 72Hz. Or for PAL e.g. 50Hz or 75Hz. If a given display supports 100Hz or 120Hz, those are good choices, too. On the other hand, 60Hz is *not* a good choice for movie watching.

And btw, who told you that watching movies on a computer monitor would be a good idea? For movie watching you should use a display which is capable of using refresh rates that match the usual movie frame rates.


Because "we people" were naive enough to hope that you would be able to learn. But since it seems that our hope was wrong, I'd appreciate if you could stop posting in "my" thread, because honestly you've posted enough misinformation in the last few pages. Thanks.
That discussion, on which you barged in wasn't even meant for you. So by saying is wrong - this means that you think is correct to advise people with 60 Hz capable monitors, to force 120 Hz on them. That's what I repeated 3 times now, yet even now you correct me as the troll above, saying is wrong which means that the opposite (forcing 120 Hz on a monitor with 60 Hz standard value) is right by you opinion. You can't say you didn't understand, cause this was repeated many times, so from my point of view, you're on same page with STaRGaZeR. I see you even agreed with his 120 Hz monitor, ignoring the fact that it's a TN panel, which again you value more, just cause it's capable of 120 Hz, ignoring TN crappy potential.

Quote:
And btw, who told you that watching movies on a computer monitor would be a good idea? For movie watching you should use a display which is capable of using refresh rates that match the usual movie frame rates.
Movies is one thing, usual videos is another but the above discussion was Monitor related. That's why STaRGaZeR mentioned about a 120 Hz monitor. As mention above, I don't use my PC as source for watching movies on TV and only used your Rendering with KMPlayer for usual video clips and was expecting to have some potential in this direction:

Quote:
I had a bad presumption regarding your video render, presuming it could render old/badly encoded videos with a better pixel fusion, based on the demonstration from the 1'st page, but in practice that personal theory was absent.
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Old 16th January 2010, 21:29   #1980  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by Alante View Post
That discussion, on which you barged in wasn't even meant for you. So by saying is wrong - this means that you think is correct to advise people with 60 Hz capable monitors, to force 120 Hz on them.
If the display supports it, *YES*, any clean multiply of 24Hz (including 120Hz) is better than 60Hz for movies. Maybe this math is too complicated for you?

NTSC movie frame rate = 24fps

24Hz/24fps = 1.0 = smooth motion
48Hz/24fps = 2.0 = smooth motion
72Hz/24fps = 3.0 = smooth motion
96Hz/24fps = 4.0 = smooth motion
120Hz/24fps = 5.0 = smooth motion

60Hz/24fps = 2.5 = motion judder

This is my last post on this topic.
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