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Old 15th April 2017, 12:33   #43341  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Fair enough, for low quality content. But how about high quality content? Do you prefer NGU Sharp or NGU Standard?
I watch so little high quality content that I feel weird answering this - but on the parts of low quality content that don't look compressed I like the crispness of NGU Sharp.

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
NGU AA is as sharp as it's ever going to be, I believe. Of course it's possible to post-sharpen it, but I don't think doing that will be part of the algorithm. I mean it might be possible to include artificial sharpening as part of the algo, but it probably wouldn't look any better than doing NGU AA first, and then apply post-sharpening.
Alright, I might mess around with post-sharpening then. I prefer using the built-in qualities of algorithms because it limits the amount of options I have to explore (and also reduces the overhead).
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Old 15th April 2017, 12:51   #43342  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
1) Do you like the new "NGU Standard" and "NGU Soft" variants? Personally, I like "NGU Standard" a lot. But I think "NGU Soft" is too soft to be useful, and I'd like to remove it again. But since I spent a lot of time creating it, I thought I'd let you test it, at least.

2) Does "NGU Standard" work better for (non-aliased) low quality content now? Or do we still have to use NGU AA for that? Ideally I hope that we can now use "NGU Sharp" for high quality soures, "NGU Standard" for low quality (but aliasing free) sources, and "NGU AntiAlias" only for aliased sources. Is that reasonable? Or is "NGU AA" still the best option for any low quality sources, aliasing free or not?
Hard to tell coz NGU AA can't do direct quad, would that be complicated to implement?

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4) With all the changes in this build, I feel that "double twice" is no longer needed. "direct quadrupling" should now always be identical or superior in quality and much faster. So I would like to remove "double twice". Any objections?
I think you got a point, but I'd love to see quad NGU AA before answering all your inquiries if any possible please.

It's really too bad you removed SR AB especially when NGU bloats quite a lot in combination with SR, I currently exclusively use SSIM downscaling(1D for HD, 2D for SD as I got GPU cycles to spare) and use SSIM's AB with great results

For 720p@1080p, NGU Sharp wins by a long shot IME.
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Old 15th April 2017, 14:37   #43343  |  Link
Q-the-STORM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Actually, there will be a new product available pretty soon, making most of the madVR algos available to avi/vapoursynth users.
Sounds great.

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Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
If there is one day a "pro" version of madVR with less limitations, all algorithms available and more options, I'm in !
Maybe it is your goal to remove/limit things now from madVR in order propose them back in a "pro" version, so the actual version will remain free ?
He's not talking about madVR, he's talking about a new product which makes madVRs algorithms available for avisynth and vapoursynth...
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Old 15th April 2017, 15:19   #43344  |  Link
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Yes I know...
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Old 15th April 2017, 16:08   #43345  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by Selur View Post
Nice!


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Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
Maybe the chroma doubling drop-down list should also lists algorithms with their names, preceded by the quality.

For instance, if I choose "high" for luma doubling, I would have this for chroma doubling :

- let madVR decide
- low (Bicubic60 AR)
- normal (Jinc AR)
- high (NGU AA low)
- high (NGU Standard low)
- high (NGU Sharp low)
- very high (NGU AA medium)
- very high (NGU Standard medium)
- very high (NGU Sharp medium)

or any other combinations of algorithms that you find adequate to use...
At the moment, new users do not even know which algorithm is used for chroma doubling without displaying the stats.
What's the point of adding "low", "medium" and "high", if I list multiple different options for each? The whole point of the way the dropdown box works right now is to protect users from making crazy decisions, which the history of this thread shows is a real problem. I may switch to using medium instead of low quality for chroma doubling, though.

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Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
For fun, I tested Bicubic60 AR against Jinc AR : http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/206712
It is not difficult to see the red gradient lines/blocks with Bicubic60 AR, while Jinc AR is smoother and has the highest quality.
If you're honest, IMHO you would probably have to admit that the difference is incredibly small, and this at something like 5000% zoom, and with a test image which should be ideal at showing the difference. Don't you agree? With 99.99% other images, you wouldn't see any difference at all even at 500000% zoom. Would you really want to spend precious GPU resources on using Jinc AR for such a tiny quality difference at 5000% zoom?

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Originally Posted by cork_OS View Post
1) I like NGU Standard very much. It provides pretty natural look, quite sharp in the same time and without excessive line thinning. [EDIT: Agreed that NGU Soft looks unnecessary.] The only benefit of NGU Soft over NGU AA is removing of dark halo in some cases.

2) Should notice that "low quality content" includes content with very different quality flaws. For example, low quality sources may contain staircase noise, which is less amplified by NGU AA. In other hand, NGU Standard is immune to dark halos. However, in general NGU AA looks more suitable at least for very low-quality content, it brings uniform and natural-looking picture.

3,4) No sir!
Ok, thanks for the feedback!

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Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes View Post
I watch so little high quality content that I feel weird answering this - but on the parts of low quality content that don't look compressed I like the crispness of NGU Sharp.
K, thx.

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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
It's really too bad you removed SR AB especially when NGU bloats quite a lot in combination with SR, I currently exclusively use SSIM downscaling(1D for HD, 2D for SD as I got GPU cycles to spare) and use SSIM's AB with great results
NGU doesn't bloat. SuperRes reintroduces some bloating, but that's not NGU's fault. Too be honest I'm not too worried about it, because I think you're probably the only person on the planet who combines NGU with SuperRes.
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Old 15th April 2017, 16:59   #43346  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

What's the point of adding "low", "medium" and "high", if I list multiple different options for each? The whole point of the way the dropdown box works right now is to protect users from making crazy decisions, which the history of this thread shows is a real problem. I may switch to using medium instead of low quality for chroma doubling, though.
The point is to have the choice of the algorithm, while indicating the level of quality of each one so users don't make crazy decisions
If they don't know what they are doing, they should stick with "let madVR decide" anyway. That is why this option exists, right ?
Switching to NGU Sharp (medium) will not solve the problem, as it will still be too sharp. The only solution is other NGU variants (like you did for chroma upscaling).

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
If you're honest, IMHO you would probably have to admit that the difference is incredibly small, and this at something like 5000% zoom, and with a test image which should be ideal at showing the difference. Don't you agree? With 99.99% other images, you wouldn't see any difference at all even at 500000% zoom. Would you really want to spend precious GPU resources on using Jinc AR for such a tiny quality difference at 5000% zoom?
Yes, I agree and admit that, but I think that you minimize too much the impact of chroma doubling in image quality.
I was not planning to use Jinc anyway if there is a good NGU alternative to NGU Sharp for chroma doubling, and Jinc has all the chances to become totally useless (performance and quality wise) with NGU Standard and NGU AA.

Last edited by Neo-XP; 15th April 2017 at 17:46.
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Old 15th April 2017, 17:05   #43347  |  Link
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NGU doesn't bloat. SuperRes reintroduces some bloating, but that's not NGU's fault.
Which was the whole point of SR AB to begin with, I have yet to comprehend why this had to go
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Old 15th April 2017, 18:18   #43348  |  Link
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madshi, what about the usage of sharper relaxed AR instead of strict in downscaling after doubling? You said you could reconsider this and apply it more granular depending on the sharpness of a doubling algorithm, as on weak GPUs it adds an excessive load without visible benefits and thus sometimes prevents use of a doubling algorithm with better quality. Can you please apply strict AR at least on NGU AA and maybe also on super-xbr?
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Old 15th April 2017, 21:44   #43349  |  Link
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Hi,

various people stated that HDR does only work when using DXVA2 with copy-back on AMD Polaris. I couldn't figure out how to change the DXVA2 mode in madVR. I double-checked every single madVR option in the settings dialog, but could not find anything related to DXVA2/copy-back (I suspect it should be under rendering).

So how do I enable this mode in madVR?


Thanks, direxx
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Old 15th April 2017, 22:16   #43350  |  Link
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Ok so, in the past i solved the "flickering" in the black parts of the screen during videos, the letterbox black, changing my monitor settings from 60 Hertz to 75.
But why i still have this sort of horizontal semitransparent flickering only in the video portion of the screen now? If i don't use madvr the flicker goes away. Maybe it's a madvr setting i set not properly?

Just to be clear, letterbox black bars are not flickered, solved by changing Hertz frequence. But i still have it in the video portion "between black bars".
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Old 15th April 2017, 22:55   #43351  |  Link
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No settings sadly fixes it for me

I did manage to get it somewhat stable with glitches and fremedrops only about every 15 minutes. before the creators update there none of these issues

threads are starting to pop op around the web with ppl having the same problems
I take that back. disabeling FSE fixes the issue. the system behaves a bit different but its fine.

I have another problem however. i get glitches if i use dxva in lav filters. what could couse this? cuvid is fine
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Old 15th April 2017, 23:10   #43352  |  Link
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madshi, i tested new NGU variants with low res low quality anime (direct quadruple very high vs AA 2x doubling very high) and must say that i still like NGU AA the most. NGU Standard is much better than NGU Sharp for low quality anime as it has much less "oil painting" effect and less aliasing but has some "flat" look to it compared to NGU AA. NGU AA has visibly less focus and sharpness compared to NGU Standard but has less aliasing and looks more pleasing and more uniform to me. So far Standard looks like a good alternative to NGU AA for those that want something sharper but not NGU Sharp level of sharp and with slightly thinner lines. I dont really like NGU Soft as it has less focus than NGU AA, thins lines too much and has more aliasing.
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Old 16th April 2017, 03:50   #43353  |  Link
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I thought NGU soft might be worth a look with a sharper Avisynth script but it still doesn't work as well as AA does, so I won't ever use it.
Since the only low resolution content I watch is anime I don't use the other upscalers so won't be commenting on them.

I'm looking forward to the Avisynth/Vapoursnyth support the most, denoising, deblocking and further improvements to NGU AA chroma/luma.

I've been using the following for denoising/deblocking for a long time through Avisynth, FluxsmoothST(12,4).FluxsmoothT(4).Merge(last,0.49)
If you're using ffdshow raw like I am and you're in need of some real-time denoising until madVR adds it, give it a shot.
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Old 16th April 2017, 08:38   #43354  |  Link
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Actually, there will be a new product available pretty soon, making most of the madVR algos available to avi/vapoursynth users. There will be a "pro" version of this new product and a free version. The free version will have some limitions, which will hopefully not be too dramatic, but motivate real "pro" users/companies to buy the pro version. This is all I can say about this for now. More details to be announced later.
This is awesome to hear! Does that mean things like ngu and reconstruction are made available as you accelerated plugins ? Or only hdr->sdr related stuff ?

I hope the price of the pro version is within reach for hobby people like me who pretend they need pro features .
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Old 16th April 2017, 10:01   #43355  |  Link
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Hi guys!
Can you help me?
If I use Nahimic2_2.5.6 (audio tool for MSI) I do not have madvr. It just does not start. But if I install Nahimic2_2.3.15, then everything works.
The whole trouble is that version 2.5.6 is better sound, as it seems to me
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Old 16th April 2017, 16:52   #43356  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
I've been using the following for denoising/deblocking for a long time through Avisynth, FluxsmoothST(12,4).FluxsmoothT(4).Merge(last,0.49)
If you're using ffdshow raw like I am and you're in need of some real-time denoising until madVR adds it, give it a shot.
For me KNLMeansCL do much better job both for denoising and deblocking, although I've failed to find really good real-time deblocker.
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Old 17th April 2017, 01:18   #43357  |  Link
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I have done some experimenting with the new NGU Soft and Standard options. Standard seems very good, a nice middle ground between Sharp and Anti-Alias. I don't find NGU Soft to be particularly useful, I generally prefer NGU Anti-Alias over NGU Soft. By default I still use NGU Sharp for high quality and NGU AA for low quality material but I will keep Standard in mind for content where Sharp is too sharp. Impressive work as always.

I have noticed that the "let madVR decide" option for chroma quadrupling does not react to direct quadrupling settings so you can get odd results.

Example:
luma doubling = very high, luma quadrupling = direct quadruple -> low, chroma = let madVR decide, results in:
luma > NGU Standard (low) 4x
chroma > NGU Standard (med) 4x

It would be great if the "let madVR decide" option for chroma algorithm quality could reference the luma quadrupling quality option when using direct quadrupling.
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Old 17th April 2017, 14:03   #43358  |  Link
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Since creators update I had a ''getting display mode failed'' message in madvr.Resetting settings did nothing but it seems a few restarts solved the problem.
Not completely sure about this one but I think that icc profile gets disabled when going fullscreen.I have only ticked ''this display is already calibrated'' in calibration settings.
Also settings in chroma upscaling,image downscaling,image upscaling open behind the open window.
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Old 17th April 2017, 16:19   #43359  |  Link
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Not sure if it has anything to do with creator update but with intel hd graphics 4400 I was able watch 1080p source witha 1080p monitor while doing Jinc chroma upscaling but now after playing for a couple seconds the rendering suddenly jumps from around 20 to 40-45 and I get a lot of stutter and frame drops and I need to switch to Bicubic150 so it plays smoothly, anyone having similar issues?
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Old 17th April 2017, 18:14   #43360  |  Link
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I have something similar happen when my GPU downclocks too much. Maybe temperature or too aggressive power saving?
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