madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[MrBonk]

Originally Posted by Uoppi

This is the recommended combination if desktop colors are of no concern, right?

I'm getting confused once again because some on the other hand say to use madVR full and GPU full.

I have madVR limited, GPU full and HDMI black level "low" on my Samsung TV (can't remember if low meant full or limited but I'm guessing low = full). Can someone confirm if this is opimal? Black levels look alright on test clips at least.

Low black level is limited yes. But most Samsungs are capable of full range 4:4:4.

Normal black level = full range.

[huhn]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

There is some banding introduced by expanding 16-235 to 0-255 but madVR's dithering prevents this being an issue (it results in extra dither noise instead of banding), at least on most displays.

this is wrong.

YCbCr to limited RGB and full range RGB is creating float point data.

if you have an YCbCr stream with only Y information limited range would create less banding but that is more than unrealistic.

so full range RGB wins because float to 0-255 has less precision loss than float to 16-235. still a very small difference.

[JarrettH]

Originally Posted by JarrettH

Is there a string value for hevc or h.265?

Basically what I want to do is create a profile to disable artifact removal if the file format is hevc.

Ok that isn't working...what do I need to fix?

Edit: figured it out myself (different issue), still need help with setting up this profile though

[huhn]

1, 2 and 3 are hot key for MPC-HC.

press 3 for default settings.

[chros]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

There is some banding introduced by expanding 16-235 to 0-255 but madVR's dithering prevents this being an issue (it results in extra dither noise instead of banding), at least on most displays.

Originally Posted by huhn

this is wrong.

YCbCr to limited RGB and full range RGB is creating float point data.

if you have an YCbCr stream with only Y information limited range would create less banding but that is more than unrealistic.

so full range RGB wins because float to 0-255 has less precision loss than float to 16-235. still a very small difference.

I can confirm what huhn states: I have to use Full Range with my Intel driver and on my TV to able get 10 bit. If I'm using limited range with both I even get clipped blacks.
Maybe it's the result of the combination of the 2 devices, I don't know. The point is everyone should experiment to see what's the best option for him/herself.
I personally vote for Full range.

[GCRaistlin]

I thought the only reason to use limited RGB is that either one's GPU or one's display device doesn't support full RGB?..

[huhn]

Originally Posted by GCRaistlin

I thought the only reason to use limited RGB is that either one's GPU or one's display device doesn't support full RGB?..

there are other good reason to set the TV to limited range for example using an AVR with source devices that can't do full range RGB.

what so ever madVR is clipping WTW and BTB with default settings and this is correct.

[Georgel]

Originally Posted by huhn

there are other good reason to set the TV to limited range for example using an AVR with source devices that can't do full range RGB.

what so ever madVR is clipping WTW and BTB with default settings and this is correct.

I don't seem to understand this.

Even if your source does output limited range, and not full range, why would you want to output software limited range?

Would not the clipping effect be better if you output anyways to full range, and let the destination clip, if it does?

[huhn]

source device

the source in this case is for example a PS3, cable tuner, sat receiver or something like that.

[GCRaistlin]

Originally Posted by huhn

source device

the source in this case is for example a PS3, cable tuner, sat receiver or something like that.

I don't understand - how do you use madVR if the source device is PS3?

[Warner306]

Originally Posted by huhn

this is wrong.

YCbCr to limited RGB and full range RGB is creating float point data.

if you have an YCbCr stream with only Y information limited range would create less banding but that is more than unrealistic.

so full range RGB wins because float to 0-255 has less precision loss than float to 16-235. still a very small difference.

When set to 16-235, I thought madVR passes blacker-than-black and whiter-than-white and the display clips these values. Is this incorrect?

[huhn]

Originally Posted by Warner306

When set to 16-235, I thought madVR passes blacker-than-black and whiter-than-white and the display clips these values. Is this incorrect?

depends.

they are not removed but that doesn't the mean display will remove them.

the TV need limited range setting and the GPU full range YCbCr or limited range RGB will not work. this setup crushes colors on the desktop.
still the second best setup you can do with madVR.
it all depends on your screen anyway.

on a properly calibrated screen WTW and BTB aren't shown but a correct signal is still needed.

I don't understand - how do you use madVR if the source device is PS3?

AVR (these digital audio amps with HDMI in and out) they are very very common.

if you connect a sat receiver, a ps3, a BD player, a PC with madVR and what ever to this AVR.

with this setup you can easily run in problem with full range because not all devices support full range.

so your PC is not the only thing in this system and not all can use full range RGB but all send there signal in the same HDMI port on your TV (source -> AVR -TV) which is on 99 % of all screen either full range or limited range depending on the settings.

using YCbCr or limited range RGB is a viable solution in this case.

BTW. full range is the "clipped" signal.

if you really like to know more about this make a new thread this has little to do with madVR.

[Warner306]

Originally Posted by huhn

depends.

they are not removed but that doesn't the mean display will remove them.

the TV need limited range setting and the GPU full range YCbCr or limited range RGB will not work. this setup crushes colors on the desktop.
still the second best setup you can do with madVR.
it all depends on your screen anyway.

on a properly calibrated screen WTW and BTB aren't shown but a correct signal is still needed.

That is what I thought. After the 20th edit, I may have described this section accurately.

[trueunborn]

Originally Posted by JamPS

Try setting ReClock on manual fps.

Thanks for replying. I'd like to do that but i am kind of a noob , i do not know how to manually enter display refresh rate (i only got a way to detect it through Direct draw or direct 3D, but does not change a thing). Besides i get some pre-configured media speed adpatations but nothing that can bypass the problem. If i knew a way to enter manually my refresh rate OR really manually adjust media speed adapatation, i certainly could do something... is it possible?
Anyway, i guess the bug as nothing to do with MAdvr because if i manually select a 3D resolution and play a 2D file, Reclock do think 23 Hz is 24hz too (works perfectly in 2D modes besides). One workaround would be if MAdvr could let us choose the display refresh rate for 3D modes (23 or 24 Hz) so i could put 24 Hz and let reclock work normaly.
I will certainly try to post to nvidia and reclock boards but i am pretty sure it as 0 chance to change anything (because nvidia do not care about things like that and reclock is pretty dead).

[huhn]

Originally Posted by Warner306

That is what I thought. After the 20th edit, I may have described this section accurately.

last word from me on this topic:

There are 3 possible HTPC level configurations, when using madVR:

(1) Display wants 0-255. GPU and madVR are consequently also both set to 0-255.

This is the most recommended setup because it doesn't (shouldn't) have any banding problems, and still has all video, desktop and games with correct black/white levels. In this case test patterns need to have black at 0,0,0, obviously.

(2) Display wants 16-235. GPU is set to 16-235. madVR has to be set to 0-255.

This is not recommended, because the GPU stretches the madVR output, probably in 8bit without dithering, so banding could be introduced. However, this is not a big problem for ArgyllCMS. Argyll still needs to create test patterns with black at 0,0,0. The GPU will then stretch the test patterns from 0-255 to 16-235, so the display will get 16,16,16, although Argyll rendered 0,0,0. So the levels are correct.

(3) Display wants 16-235. GPU is set to 0-255. madVR is set to 16-235.

This is the recommended setup for best image quality if your display can't do 0-255. This setup results in banding-free madVR image quality. However, levels for desktop and games will be incorrect, because desktop and games will render black at 0,0,0, while the display expects black at 16,16,16.

source: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...argyllcms.html

[Stereodude]

Ideally you want to convert from YCbCr to RGB and expand RGB to 0-255 at the same time in one step since the color space conversion works with floating point math that can be mapped to any output range you want with minimal loss. That means either sending YCbCr to the display and letting the display do both steps at once (which isn't an option for PCs since they work in RGB space and can't output native YCbCr), or doing the YCbCr to 0-255 RGB conversion in the PC. Unfortunately, some people may have a display that won't accept RGB 0-255 which means they have to use a less than ideal setup and have to pick between option 2 and 3 that huhn lists based on what all you're trying to use the PC for.

[David]

Simplified, and only for one color matrix, YUV -> RGB works like this: (without range change)

R = Y + 1.54 * (V - 128)
G = Y - 0.183 * (U - 128) - 0.45 * (V - 128)
B = Y + 1.81 * (U - 128)

(No guarantees for the exact coefficients, I just cobbled them together quickly)

As you can see, its quite odd values which are used here, which are guaranteed to produce odd results in 16-bit float.
If you want to convert that back to 8-bit integer for RGB output, you need to round, or better, dither!

Now if you want to do range expansion, the values used here just change slightly, and it looks like this:

R = 1.16 * (Y - 16) + 1.79 * (V - 128)
G = 1.16 * (Y - 16) - 0.213 * (U - 128) - 0.532 * (V - 128)
B = 1.16 * (Y - 16) + 2.11 * (U - 128)

No change in functionality, just a few changes in coefficients.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...48#post1678348

[Uoppi]

Originally Posted by Warner306

I'd set everything to full range so desktop levels remain accurate and the GPU doesn't have to do a range conversion for the display -- after madVR, the output is straight passthrough.

Your configuration is considered optimal because madVR doesn't clip anything and all output is passed-through as is to the display. But I doubt it has any real advantage over setting everything full range; especially when your desktop levels will be off and look distracting.

Can anyone claim superiority for setting madVR to 16-235?

OK. Desktop accuracy is irrelevant to me as I use the HTPC exclusively for madVR + Kodi (and also foobar2000 but with the TV turned off). So I'll keep using madVR limited, GPU & TV full (assuming "low" black level means full on Samsungs!)

[GCRaistlin]

There are 3 possible HTPC level configurations, when using madVR

I always keep this in mind, that's why I asked my question above. Can we say that madVR should always set to the lowest levels value of those that GPU wants and display wants and GPU should be set to 0-255 if possible?

[Warner306]

Originally Posted by GCRaistlin

I always keep this in mind, that's why I asked my question above. Can we say that madVR should always set to the lowest levels value of those that GPU wants and display wants and GPU should be set to 0-255 if possible?

Try to avoid allowing the GPU to do any range conversions. That is the most straightforward recommendation.