madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[huhn]

Yeah, the range on my tv is 40-120 hz. Xbox will do lfc at 20-30 fps because that doubles from 40-60 hz.

the xbox can't do 120 hz uhd it does it at 1440p or 1080p and then this feature will work.

You would think using dx11 native would just engage variable refresh rate.

it's not that easy in my experience it is blocked and it's planned to be blocked for fixed FPS games too a video is part of this category too. this doesn't make sense to me 144 hz is very common and 60 fps at 144 is just bad but totally fine with g-sync.

and g-sync for video is very complicated it's not a game where A/V sync doesn't exist. audio that "need" sync in games is usually only a couple of secs so it doesn't matter and the sync of BGM is irrelevant. but for movie playback you have to sync an video to an hour or longer audio stream it not build for that.

to properly use that madVR needs to measure the difference between audio and video clock fix this using the system clock. yeah lot of fun.

This seems like the ultimate solution to the repeated frames problem. This guide I read said your card can only output 8 bit in madvr if you use custom modes... Which seems far from optimal.

you mean better for lg oleds.

[tyguy]

Originally Posted by huhn

the xbox can't do 120 hz uhd it does it at 1440p or 1080p and then this feature will work.

you mean better for lg oleds.

I read somewhere if you set your xbox to 4k 60 it will still do LFC on 30 fps titles that dip below 30 fps since 25-30 doubles into samsungs vrr range. Well, im assuming the 2020 and beyond lineup of tvs will start to feature hdmi 2.1 from every manufacturer. So it wont just benefit lg oled.

[ryrynz]

Originally Posted by tyguy

So it wont just benefit lg oled.

You can edit down quotes so they don't take up more forum space than your reply. Full quotes are not required most times. Cheers.

[tyguy]

Originally Posted by ryrynz

You can edit down quotes so they don't take up more forum space than your reply. Full quotes are not required most times. Cheers.

I posted it on the phone which makes it more difficult.

[ryrynz]

I feel that. Missing the [ is a common occurrence for me on the first reply. The bigger the quote the more meaningful it is though imo.

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by tyguy

This seems like the ultimate solution to the repeated frames problem. This guide I read said your card can only output 8 bit in madvr if you use custom modes... Which seems far from optimal.

Why? On LG's OLEDs 8 bit has less banding than 10 bit when in PC or Game mode. 8 bit is more optimal than 10 bit.

I still think VRR support in madVR would be useful. Playback wouldn't be as good as a tuned fixed refresh rate but we wouldn't need to worry about refresh rates at all. madshi is less interested simply because it is going to be worse. I think the minor judder from imperfect presentation timing would be fine, way better than 23fps at 60 Hz, and audio sync is pretty easy if having all frames presented for the exact same amount of time is not considered too important. Simply adjust the frame times a tiny bit as you go to maintain sync.

madVR is all about quality so spending a bunch of work to get VRR support for gaming monitors to support a slightly worse playback mode was not reasonable. However, now that TVs are getting VRR too it might be more reasonable to look into it? Probably not.

[huhn]

the problem is someone has to write the code for this and how do you even say the GPU this frame 0.5 ms later plz?

want to handle everything with chrono?

[tyguy]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

Why? On LG's OLEDs 8 bit has less banding than 10 bit when in PC or Game mode. 8 bit is more optimal than 10 bit.

I'm only using 8 bit color depth in madvr because im using rgb full 8 bit in my nvidia drivers and nvidia wont switch to 10/12 bit when it drops the refresh rate.

I dont label my hdmi input anything. I just keep it to default hdmi 1. With 8 bit I haven't noticed any banding. I will be getting a new card when 2.1 cards come out though. So ill be running my desktop at 4k 120 hz rgb full 10/12 bit.

Would there be an issues if I set madvr to 8 bit, but im using 10 or 12 bit with my nvidia drivers?

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by tyguy

I dont label my hdmi input anything. I just keep it to default hdmi 1. With 8 bit I haven't noticed any banding.

Using the default HDMI input the TV will convert to YCbCr 4:2:2 internally. This blurs the color information horizontally. Both color planes are resampled to 1920x2160 by the TV. This does eliminate banding with 8 or 10 bit RGB input but the image is blurred. I hope you are using very low power chroma scaling options because anything better is pointless.

Originally Posted by tyguy

Would there be an issues if I set madvr to 8 bit, but im using 10 or 12 bit with my nvidia drivers?

No issues except being totally pointless, why set Nvidia drivers to anything but 8 bit? There is absolutely zero improvement in quality on an LG 7/8/9 when sending it 10 bit instead of 8 bit when using any HDMI option, and 10 bit is worse quality when using PC or Game mode.

Ideally you want to send an LG C9 8 bit YCbCr limited range using the PC or game HDMI mode. Anything else either has banding or blurs the chroma. If you set the drivers to YCbCr limited set madVr to full range output.
gradient-perceptual-v2.1 24fps.mkv
gradient-perceptual-colored-v2.1 24fps.mkv

I know 10 bit sounds cool but it really is pointless at best on an LG OLED. I will be using 8 bit YCbCr limited range 3840x2160 @ 120 Hz on my LG C9 when I get an HDMI 2.1 GPU unless I get a new TV that is not so bad with RGB full input.

[YukonTrooper]

My aspect ratio for HDR files is broken using MadVR in any player. The film area is off-center and stretched. Playback without MadVR OK. Any ideas?

[huhn]

you could start with a screen of the OSD (control+j).

[tyguy]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

Using the default HDMI input the TV will convert to YCbCr 4:2:2 internally. This blurs the color information horizontally. Both color planes are resampled to 1920x2160 by the TV. This does eliminate banding with 8 or 10 bit RGB input but the image is blurred. I hope you are using very low power chroma scaling options because anything better is pointless.







No issues except being totally pointless, why set Nvidia drivers to anything but 8 bit? There is absolutely zero improvement in quality on an LG 7/8/9 when sending it 10 bit instead of 8 bit when using any HDMI option, and 10 bit is worse quality when using PC or Game mode.



Ideally you want to send an LG C9 8 bit YCbCr limited range using the PC or game HDMI mode. Anything else either has banding or blurs the chroma. If you set the drivers to YCbCr limited set madVr to full range output.

gradient-perceptual-v2.1 24fps.mkv

gradient-perceptual-colored-v2.1 24fps.mkv



I know 10 bit sounds cool but it really is pointless at best on an LG OLED. I will be using 8 bit YCbCr limited range 3940x2160 @ 120 Hz on my LG C9 when I get an HDMI 2.1 GPU unless I get a new TV that is not so bad with RGB full input.

Where did you get the information about the tv internally doing Ycbcr 422? I thought in Windows you always want to use rgb because windows will just convert ycbcr to rgb?

Also, why is my Apple TV able to do 10 bit without banding, but my windows pc can only send it 8 bit dithered or else I get banding?

Finally, why would I set madvr to full if I’m using limited and have my TV set to low hdmi black level?

I’ve seen a lot of conflicting information out there. It’s hard to know what to believe.

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by tyguy

Where did you get the information about the tv internally doing Ycbcr 422? I thought in Windows you always want to use rgb because windows will just convert ycbcr to rgb?

It is easy to test for yourself. With ChromaRes.png you can test which modes use 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. View this image at 100% scaling, i.e. in a window on a 4K screen, and switch between hdmi and pc modes. With the gradient test patterns I linked above you can verify all of what I have said.

Windows will always render in 8 bit RGB but if you set the GPU to YCbCr it converts everything to YCbCr. madVR always outputs RGB too.

Originally Posted by tyguy

Also, why is my Apple TV able to do 10 bit without banding, but my windows pc can only send it 8 bit dithered or else I get banding?

Because you have your HDMI port in the default mode, also the Apple TV is sending subsampled limited range YCbCr so this isn't really a problem. However, madVR with 8 bit output and the GPU converting to 8 bit YCbCr 4:4:4 is higher quality.

Originally Posted by tyguy

Finally, why would I set madvr to full if I’m using limited and have my TV set to low hdmi black level?

Because limited in the GPU drivers means "convert the full range RGB into limited YCbCr." If you set madVR to limited range too you get double limited because the GPU always converts, it has no way to know madVR is sending limited range.

The reason madVR has a setting for limited range is because if you only care about madVR and don't mind if everything else in Windows is wrong you can set madVR to limited and the GPU to full range. This results in the same image but without the GPU converting ranges. I care about everything else too, and the drivers still need to convert the RGB to YCbCr anyway, so I use limited range in the GPU and full in madVR.

Also, what is ideal in principle and what is ideal in real life with an LG 2019 OLED is not the same thing.

[tyguy]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

It is easy to test for yourself. With ChromaRes.png you can test which modes use 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. View this image at 100% scaling, i.e. in a window on a 4K screen, and switch between hdmi and pc modes. With the gradient test patterns I linked above you can verify all of what I have said.

Windows will always render in 8 bit RGB but if you set the GPU to YCbCr it converts everything to YCbCr. madVR always outputs RGB too.



Because you have your HDMI port in the default mode, also the Apple TV is sending subsampled limited range YCbCr so this isn't really a problem. However, madVR with 8 bit output and the GPU converting to 8 bit YCbCr 4:4:4 is higher quality.



Because limited in the GPU drivers means "convert the full range RGB into limited YCbCr." If you set madVR to limited range too you get double limited because the GPU always converts, it has no way to know madVR is sending limited range.

The reason madVR has a setting for limited range is because if you only care about madVR and don't mind if everything else in Windows is wrong you can set madVR to limited and the GPU to full range. This results in the same image but without the GPU converting ranges. I care about everything else too, and the drivers still need to convert the RGB to YCbCr anyway, so I use limited range in the GPU and full in madVR.

Also, what is ideal in principle and what is ideal in real life with an LG 2019 OLED is not the same thing.

I actually don’t have my Apple set in default mode. It’s hooked into my receiver which I have labeled “home theatre” in the input section. Maybe that’s the same as default hdmi, but I can always just label that game console or pc as well and see if I can notice banding.

I don’t think you can get wide color gamut from a console or Apple TV without sending the tv 10 bit because they don’t do dithering.

If Windows is converting ycbcr to rgb and madvr only outputs rgb....Why not just use rgb 8 bit limited instead of ycbcr 422?

[el Filou]

Because the LG's processing of RGB input is of lower quality.

[DMU]

Originally Posted by el Filou

Because the LG's processing of RGB input is of lower quality.

@Asmodian
And the output at 60Hz@RGB@PCMode does not solve the issue's on LG OLED?

[mclingo]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

It is easy to test for yourself.

hi, this issue with LG OLEDS, its quite confusing,, there is a lot to take on here and some conflicting information to what ive been given in the past. Firstl, does it extend to older models, i have gen 1.0 EF950v, i've never noticed any banding to be honest, my current setup is as follows:

HDMI 1 selected, lleft it named HDMI 1
Expert 1 profile set to HIGH colour space
AMD RX 580 running at 4:4:4 FULL RGB set to 8 bit in graphica settings
MADVR set to 0-255

everything looks fine to me, however I do have an issue if I use the actual "PC" HDMI input setting, SDR is fine but no matter what I do HDR is massively washed out and gamma is all messed up, nothing i do corrects this, I dont use PC mode anyway though as I use a tiny bit of smooth motion which greatly improves bright panning shots without any artefact or soap opera effects.

Are you suggesting I should be runniing my panel in PC mode and at YBCR limted mode, what should I actually see on that chroma res pattern, I see 442 clearly but I can also see 444 albeit fiently.

I dont see any banding in either of those movies, gradients and pretty smooth.

[Stef2]

I would like to hear from madvr users with a projector and an anamorphic lens.

I just bought such a lens and when I enable the anamorphic option in madvr (4/3 vertical stretch in my case) the rendering time goes up quite a lot, increasing from 36ms average to 55+ms average after the stretch...

Of course, that makes my 4K HDR 24p movie unwatchable

The only way I gan get the rendering time back to below 40ms is by disabling completely any HDR processing in madvr, but that deteriorates the projected image a lot, of course. Decreasing luma and chroma upsampling quality by a lot is not enough. Decreasing dithering quality is not enough. Enabling every "trade quality for performance" option over all that that is not enough...

My GPU is a GTX 1070. I do not mind upgrading it to a RTX 2080 if this is what I will need.

Is there any anamorphic lens user around here? what do you observe when enabling this option? Any RTX 2080 user can help me by observing the difference in rendering time between no stretch and anamorphic stretch enabled in madvr.

Any input is welcome!
Thank you.

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by tyguy

I actually don’t have my Apple set in default mode. It’s hooked into my receiver which I have labeled “home theatre” in the input section.

Yes, Home Theatre is the same as the default, it subsamples the chroma.

Originally Posted by tyguy

If Windows is converting ycbcr to rgb and madvr only outputs rgb....Why not just use rgb 8 bit limited instead of ycbcr 422?

Windows is not converting YCbCr to RGB.

The GPU driver is converting the RGB from both Windows and madVR to YCbCr. Do NOT use YCbCr 422! That would be subsampling the chroma in the GPU driver instead of the TV.

If you are asking why the TV uses YCbCr 422 internally it is because TV manufactures are too cheap to get decent video processing chips. YCbCr 422 only takes 2/3 of the bandwidth of YCbCr 444 so they do not need as capable of hardware.

In the Nvidia drivers I cannot set limited range RGB anymore so I did not test limited range RGB (that isn't really a standard either). Better to use YCbCr as always limited and RGB as always full range. The TV is expecting YCbCr limited range input because that is what Apple TV, bluray players, etc. will send it. LG got it working reasonably well for that but they seem to not care about the quality of full range RGB input.

Originally Posted by DMU

@Asmodian
And the output at 60Hz@RGB@PCMode does not solve the issue's on LG OLED?

The refresh rate does not change the banding with RGB input in PC/Game mode in anyway but it does solve the issue with judder with any non-60Hz input while in PC mode. I always use 60 Hz with smooth motion now. Once in PC mode (so we get full resolution color) these TVs are pretty finicky and only seem to handle 8 bit YCbCr 444 limited range 60 Hz input well.

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by huhn

the problem is someone has to write the code for this and how do you even say the GPU this frame 0.5 ms later plz?

Yes, of course it is work for madshi that does not improve the quality in any ideal scenarios. This is the best reason for it not to exist.

But it isn't that hard to decide what to do (coding it is another issue), simply wait 0.5 ms and then present the frame. I probably cannot tell if a frame is 0.5 ms early or late anyway and the even smaller inaccuracies due to Windows scheduling are even less important. As long as the player is presenting the frames close to when it should audio sync is a non-issue. If this would be better than smooth motion at 60 Hz I don't know, I am pretty happy with smooth motion already so I am not sure it is worth the effort. However, as it is now I need to manually turn off VRR when I switch from gaming to watching video.

Originally Posted by mclingo

HDMI 1 selected, lleft it named HDMI 1

Nothing I said applies if you let the TV subsample chroma (e.g. do not use the PC HDMI setting).

Also, use the banding test patterns to judge banding. I do not see obvious banding with normal content except very rarely. I also don't know about models that old, I have only tested the C7 and C9 myself.

HDR tone mapping is obviously worse quality on my display when in PC/Game mode, I really wish LG did not subsample chroma in their video processor. According to my calibration software the gamut is much smaller, which results in less saturated/washed out video but the gamma is still reasonable, not as good, but reasonable. I do switch to Home Theater when watching HDR (rare for me).