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Old 20th January 2021, 21:55   #1481  |  Link
quietvoid
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I've updated my 2018 to 05.30.10, reset all settings.
No improvement for Dolby Vision black levels, contrast 99 looks weird.

I'm questioning one thing, what do you guys have set for Color Gamut in HDR?
Auto looks less saturated than Wide, with all my inputs (FireTV stick, madVR).
But I don't know if Wide is accurate.

Last edited by quietvoid; 20th January 2021 at 22:05.
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Old 21st January 2021, 01:06   #1482  |  Link
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I have been on Auto since day 1... but like you I am not sure if it is correct or not. I may do a few measurements this week... maybe

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Old 21st January 2021, 14:05   #1483  |  Link
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I've read that it just increases saturation artificially, but it's weird to name an option that way.
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Old 21st January 2021, 19:36   #1484  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quietvoid View Post
I've updated my 2018 to 05.30.10, reset all settings.
No improvement for Dolby Vision black levels, contrast 99 looks weird.
Cheers. According to Vincent, they just recently fixed the CX DV black issue with the 2nd firmware release, not before.

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Originally Posted by quietvoid View Post
I'm questioning one thing, what do you guys have set for Color Gamut in HDR?
Auto looks less saturated than Wide, with all my inputs (FireTV stick, madVR).
But I don't know if Wide is accurate.
I also use Auto (Cinema preset default) with HDR10. The interesting part is that I tried it with Cinema Home preset, and "Extended" is the very same as Auto (Cinema) and not "Wide"!

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I have been on Auto since day 1... but like you I am not sure if it is correct or not. I may do a few measurements this week... maybe
That would be nice, I only measured SDR.

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Originally Posted by quietvoid View Post
I've read that it just increases saturation artificially, but it's weird to name an option that way.
Which option? Wide?
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Old 21st January 2021, 19:39   #1485  |  Link
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Which option? Wide?
Yes, Wide.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 03:26   #1486  |  Link
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Quote:
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I've updated my 2018 to 05.30.10, reset all settings.
Not available for me yet. Didn't even know they put a new build out. Typical.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 03:33   #1487  |  Link
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[05.30.10]
1. Improved disconnection in certain apps after software update

Really? Yawn.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 04:31   #1488  |  Link
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The 05.30.02 update had a lot of issues with WiFi slowing down significantly and even dropping.
They didn't mess around to publish a hotfix.
Basically these last updates just add AirPlay support.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 05:35   #1489  |  Link
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I am very happy to report that firmware 03.21.16 seems to have solved my near black banding problem when sending full range RGB to my 48" LG CX.

After recalibrating with the new firmware (which was needed) I am happy running 10 bit RGB full 120 Hz to the display, though I still have madVR dithering to 8 bit to reduce banding.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 07:20   #1490  |  Link
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Where's that one finger salute emoji..... Lmao! I'm glad they fixed it for you. I just wish they'd maybe back port a few fixes. Sigh

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Old 23rd January 2021, 21:08   #1491  |  Link
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Quote:
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I'm glad they fixed it for you.
Better later than never But seriously, 9 months after releasing a product ... finally DV is maybe good now

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You can pick up scenes as well, share the timestamps and that's it.
- let's use 800/75 then for now
-- "disabled avgHL ceiling" enabled
-- "don't add peak nits" enabled
-- all the other unnecessary options disabled (contrast/shadow recovery, dynamic clipping, sky strength)
- that means DTN will kick in at ~184 FALL (if frame peak > DPL)
- the question is what FALL/scene combo DTN is really needed and is there any scene in the title when DTN is unnecessary with these settings
-- if we can come up with a DTN value at the end for this title then that'd be the best

One more important thing:
- madvr can/does result in different ADPLs during playback vs still images!

The Grinch is very bright, so it's easy to find scenes like this:
- 1: 00:02:05 - 00:03:20 (2985 - 4784)
- 2: 00:06:45 - 00:07:25 (9699 - 10658)
- 3: 00:13:10 - 00:14:00 (18930 - 20130)
-- this scene is interesting, there are frames when frame peak is only ~430 but FALL is >200.
- 4: 00:16:00 - 00:16:45 (23006 - 24086)
So, I had a little time to play with these (I added frame numbers to scenes as well), in short:
- I disabled (!) DTN for "normal" content (in my default HDR10 profile)

Here is why, DTN cause more harm than good with "normal" content:
- I haven't seen any frames that needs DTN (dimming)
- madvr works with scenes:
-- it resets on scene changes
-- within a scene it slowly corrects itself
--- often happens that there are high FALL frames for only couple of seconds that still unnecessarly dim the following frames in the same scenes

The real question is what contents are "normal" for us high DPL users, based on avgHL or frame peak or something else (as we already talked about it). I bet 95% of the content we come across today are like this.

What clear now is that the current implementation of DTN is completely wrong for high DPLs, meaning we definitely can't use 1 profile settings for all the content we have.
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Last edited by chros; 23rd January 2021 at 21:13.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 21:38   #1492  |  Link
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LG hasn't given me a whole lot of reasons to upgrade my C8. Lower max nit level. Still screwed up DV (may be fixed finally?! WOO?). PC mode still not 100% awesome. I mean they're getting better but I'd need a flawless panel to get me to want to upgrade. I want to see what the hell they've done this year because the Cx (not to be confused with the CX LOL) line didn't get the upgraded panel tech this year. WTF? They really know how to confuse people.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 22:41   #1493  |  Link
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I agree, and not to mention new panel issues: horizontal banding, grid pattern, etc.
For me the biggest issue with separating Gx from Cx is that these will have different firmwares! What a mess this will be
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Old 24th January 2021, 00:36   #1494  |  Link
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I am hoping all models get the new panels in 2022 and re-unify the Cx and Gx.

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PC mode still not 100% awesome.
I agree that it isn't 100% awesome but the newest firmware on the 2020 models solved my last significant issue with PC mode. Banding seems similar in PC mode v.s. HDMI mode now, in both HDR and SDR.

I can always get more picky, and there are plenty of imperfections when I do, but PC mode has improved so much since my C7 that I have to be happy about it. At least for a bit.
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Last edited by Asmodian; 24th January 2021 at 02:39. Reason: x not X.. C0 G0 would have been less confusing than CX and GX if they didn't want C10 and G10
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Old 24th January 2021, 00:54   #1495  |  Link
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Quote:
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So, I had a little time to play with these (I added frame numbers to scenes as well), in short:
- I disabled (!) DTN for "normal" content (in my default HDR10 profile)

Here is why, DTN cause more harm than good with "normal" content:
- I haven't seen any frames that needs DTN (dimming)
- madvr works with scenes:
-- it resets on scene changes
-- within a scene it slowly corrects itself
--- often happens that there are high FALL frames for only couple of seconds that still unnecessarly dim the following frames in the same scenes

The real question is what contents are "normal" for us high DPL users, based on avgHL or frame peak or something else (as we already talked about it). I bet 95% of the content we come across today are like this.

What clear now is that the current implementation of DTN is completely wrong for high DPLs, meaning we definitely can't use 1 profile settings for all the content we have.
Did you have sky detection turned on? I found DTN to not do very much with The Grinch with it on, which sounds like what you want it to do.
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Old 24th January 2021, 01:17   #1496  |  Link
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It was off as per instructions along with the others. My point is that based on those 4 scenes TG doesn't need DTN!
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Old 24th January 2021, 01:42   #1497  |  Link
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It was off as per instructions along with the others. My point is that based on those 4 scenes TG doesn't need DTN!
Okay, but sky detection seems to work perfectly on that movie to lower FALL so that DTN does little/nothing, which seems to be exactly what you want on those scenes. Otherwise, you have to lower DTN in order to stop it from kicking in and see how that lower DTN works with other content.

Sky detection is designed to work hand-in-hand with DTN (it modifies FALL only for the DTN calc and does nothing else), so I think it's premature to conclude that the current implementation of DTN is completely wrong for high DPLs when we've only tested a single DTN and only without sky detection doing its job to lower targets in flat skies which are abundant in The Grinch.

I think if you enable sky detection on those scenes you will come to quite the opposite conclusion, that the targeting actually ends up very close to where you want it on those scenes with the 75 DTN.

Last edited by aron7awol; 24th January 2021 at 01:46.
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Old 24th January 2021, 12:32   #1498  |  Link
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Okay, but sky detection seems to work perfectly on that movie to lower FALL so that DTN does little/nothing, which seems to be exactly what you want on those scenes. Otherwise, you have to lower DTN in order to stop it from kicking in and see how that lower DTN works with other content.
Yes, it helps, bit still not perfect, DTN is triggered once in scene 2 (although just for a short time), but in scene 4 similar thing happens than without it:
- "disable avgHL ceiling" disabled
- avgHL ceiling: 2x
- sky strength: 100

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that the targeting actually ends up very close to where you want it
And that is my point: it doesn't. I think TG (that is an extreme example of "normal" contents) doesn't need DTN at all.

So, if someone comes across these type of contents (e.g. maxCLL < 1300-1600 nits) that benefit from DTN then please share it (with timestamps).
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Old 24th January 2021, 13:53   #1499  |  Link
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So let's focus on those scenes where it is doing what you don't want it to do, even with sky detection enabled.

For each of those scenes make a note of:
With sky detection enabled, what is FALL, and what is the resulting target?
If you lower avgHL multiplier further, is there a point where it kicks in?
Does changing the sky max width 10 vs 20 or the hill settings help ?
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Old 24th January 2021, 22:25   #1500  |  Link
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Did some testing of those same scenes to see what impact the avgHL ceiling and sky detection would have on those frames which result in targets >800 with just DTN 75:

1. Sky detection lowered the target down to 800 in 4 out of the 6 frames.
2. In the two remaining frames, a 2.5x avgHL ceiling lowered the target down to 800.
3. Thus, running sky detection and a 2.5x avgHL ceiling resulted in a target of 800 in all of the frames tested.

I went back at the end to one of those two frames (6:59 shown at the bottom of the list) where sky detection didn't lower the target, and tested Dynamic Clipping to see if it would have any impact. A value as low as 20 lowered the target down to 800 alone.

So I think this is a good exercise showing the power of the ancillary functions of the algo, where we see each of them able to chip in and lower targets in certain cases, and although one of them alone didn't do that completely, when enabled together they can combine to give us the targets we want. And let's keep in mind we haven't even established that 75 DTN is what we want, but it still shows that DTN can work for this particular movie with sky and avgHL ceiling enabled.

I added a column to the far right showing the maximum DTN for each frame that would result in a target of 800. I think that columns shows nicely that relying on just a single DTN FALL multiplier to end up at the right targets is an exercise in futility, and that some ancillary functions are essentially required in order to get good targets. I don't see this as a knock on DTN, it's just that FALL alone only tells us so much, and so the FALL multiplier is just one piece of the puzzle.

So @chros, I think if you run through The Grinch with sky detection on and a 2.5x avgHL ceiling (I'm leaving DC off for now because of the order-of-operations error when used concurrently with sky detection) you'll be very happy with the resulting targets. The question then becomes, are there any frames where that combo results in a target we aren't happy with? We now need to find those so we can take the next steps.

Edit: I went back through with those settings and found a frame at 2:20 which resulted in a target >800. The target was 830, which was avgHLx2.5 and so avgHL was 332 for this frame. Lowering DTN to 65 lowered the target to 800. Additionally, I switched back and forth between the 800 and 830 target for this frame and really couldn't tell any difference anyway.

Edit2: Also forgot to mention that 2.75x works almost as well as 2.50x to keep those targets down. It resulted in some that were something like 806 nits instead of 800 but that's inconsequential. Just wanted to mention it because 2.50x might be a little lower than we want for some other stuff like The Meg. FWIW, my previous testing had found an avgHL multiplier that was approximately 70% of FALL multiplier seemed to work well, which in this case would be 3.05x for the 800/75 combo. That is the exact combo I liked a lot with The Meg: 800/75 3.00x. This is good, I think, that combo of settings actually works quite well on both The Grinch and The Meg. I might choose something in between 2.75x and 3.00x if that were possible.

Last edited by aron7awol; 25th January 2021 at 15:39.
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