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Old 9th January 2019, 17:49   #54181  |  Link
tp4tissue
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
the brightness level of the none compressed parts match at gamma 2.2.

so if you want the correct brightness levels you set this screen is already calibrated to your screens response where unlike SDR madVR will automatic change your "gamma" for HDR sources to 2.2.

as i said before i'm not a friend of this inconsistent behaviour between HDR and SDR.
What does this mean ?

I have a rec709 3dlut (2.4 gamma)

I turn on pixel shader hdr->sdr

The shader outputs 2.2 gamma, then the rec 709 lut brings it down to 2.4 gamma ?

Or does everything still come out at 2.2 ?

Should I make a rec709 lut for 2.2 gamma ?
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Old 9th January 2019, 18:20   #54182  |  Link
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in this case it kind of needs a 2.2 3D LUT to make correct brightness levels that match HDR. madVR has to assume it'2 2.2 not sure if newer version can read from the 3D LUT what gamma it uses or if this is present in the 3D LUT at all.
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Old 9th January 2019, 18:20   #54183  |  Link
sat4all
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
What does this mean ?

I have a rec709 3dlut (2.4 gamma)

I turn on pixel shader hdr->sdr

The shader outputs 2.2 gamma, then the rec 709 lut brings it down to 2.4 gamma ?

Or does everything still come out at 2.2 ?

Should I make a rec709 lut for 2.2 gamma ?
fhoech (Displaycal):
<<For SDR, madVR doesn't alter relative luminance of the original signal at all (unless you enable gamma processing or choose "this display is calibrated to" with a gamma that is not 2.2), so if a calibration 3D LUT is used that really is the only thing (apart from the display itself) that affects the resulting tone response (and if not using a 3D LUT, the display itself is the only thing affecting relative luminance of the decoded signal).
For HDR to SDR, madVR decodes the signal with SMPTE 2084 (PQ), applies BT.2390 roll-off and re-scaling using the chosen target peak nits, and then re-encodes to gamma 2.2, and then feeds it into any SDR calibration 3D LUT. So, in both cases, a gamma 2.4 SDR calibration 3D LUT makes the result darker compared to a gamma 2.2 SDR calibration 3D LUT. For SDR, this may be the desired effect (e.g. BT.1886 on an OLED results in an effective 2.4 pure power curve), but for HDR PQ, which is based on absolute luminance, this effect is undesirable.>>

So you should make an rec709 lut for 2.2 gamma.
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Old 9th January 2019, 23:19   #54184  |  Link
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Originally Posted by sat4all View Post
fhoech (Displaycal):
<<For SDR, madVR doesn't alter relative luminance of the original signal at all (unless you enable gamma processing or choose "this display is calibrated to" with a gamma that is not 2.2), so if a calibration 3D LUT is used that really is the only thing (apart from the display itself) that affects the resulting tone response (and if not using a 3D LUT, the display itself is the only thing affecting relative luminance of the decoded signal).
For HDR to SDR, madVR decodes the signal with SMPTE 2084 (PQ), applies BT.2390 roll-off and re-scaling using the chosen target peak nits, and then re-encodes to gamma 2.2, and then feeds it into any SDR calibration 3D LUT. So, in both cases, a gamma 2.4 SDR calibration 3D LUT makes the result darker compared to a gamma 2.2 SDR calibration 3D LUT. For SDR, this may be the desired effect (e.g. BT.1886 on an OLED results in an effective 2.4 pure power curve), but for HDR PQ, which is based on absolute luminance, this effect is undesirable.>>

So you should make an rec709 lut for 2.2 gamma.

You make I understand. I thank you !!
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Old 9th January 2019, 23:36   #54185  |  Link
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i don't use AMD cards right now i don't even know if they have something like this it would just be a little bit more disappointing then usual if they don't have this. a custom resolution may work to.

you didn't say what windows version this is but you seem to have 2 displays and this can create a lot of presentation glitches.
The option exists with AMD (see the pic I posted). Most of what I read online seems to be adding custom resolutions for resolutions that aren't there in the first place. I'm already using the default 1920x1080 so I'm just not sure what I would fill out for all the values.

Latest Windows 10 pro. One of the monitors (shows up as #1 under Windows) is actually a display port to hdmi adapter w/HDMI cable going to my AVR (my AVR is too old to use as a switch). The actual monitor being used is of course my TV (via standard HDMI cable).

Last edited by glc650; 9th January 2019 at 23:39.
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Old 10th January 2019, 00:04   #54186  |  Link
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Originally Posted by glc650 View Post
The option exists with AMD (see the pic I posted). Most of what I read online seems to be adding custom resolutions for resolutions that aren't there in the first place. I'm already using the default 1920x1080 so I'm just not sure what I would fill out for all the values.

Latest Windows 10 pro. One of the monitors (shows up as #1 under Windows) is actually a display port to hdmi adapter w/HDMI cable going to my AVR (my AVR is too old to use as a switch). The actual monitor being used is of course my TV (via standard HDMI cable).
out of interest why are you using scaling if you are using the default 1080p, dont you just need to use normal scaling to full panel?

Have to admit I dont know much about this, havent had to scale anything for a decade or more and ive never even seen that slider in my settings.
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Old 10th January 2019, 01:29   #54187  |  Link
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out of interest why are you using scaling if you are using the default 1080p, dont you just need to use normal scaling to full panel?

Have to admit I dont know much about this, havent had to scale anything for a decade or more and ive never even seen that slider in my settings.
The image is not displayed perfectly (it's cutoff/offscreen a bit on all 4 sides) on my TV. I was using the HDMI Scaling option in Radeon Settings to make this more livable. Without it, things like mpc-hc's status bar are cutoff to where it is hard to read the time indicator. And the first couple letters of the madvr stats are cutoff and the Windows start button is only half visable. And the X to close windows is partially cutoff. My TV's horiz/vert adjustments (available in PC or game mode) only allow for moving the entire imagine up/down and left/right buth with those controls and HDMI Scaling set to 3% I am able to basically make all the stuff in the examples above fully viewable again with only the outermost parts of the image un-viewable.

Last edited by glc650; 10th January 2019 at 01:32.
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Old 10th January 2019, 04:41   #54188  |  Link
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What are your presentation times in madVR stats? Do they increase when the 3% overscan compensation is enabled?
You could try lowering some madVR setting for rendering and see if it improves things? Maybe if the rendering + presentation is too close to frame time it can cause problems when the GPU has to do overscan compensation on top.

I don't know why the issue appeared when you just changed from one Radeon to a newer one, maybe the newer one is using a different way to do overscan compensation.
Is it exactly the same driver? Did you try doing a total driver cleanup with DDU and then reinstalling it?
Edit: did you try a reset to defaults of madVR settings and then reconfiguring it manually?
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Old 10th January 2019, 05:00   #54189  |  Link
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Originally Posted by glc650 View Post
The option exists with AMD (see the pic I posted). Most of what I read online seems to be adding custom resolutions for resolutions that aren't there in the first place. I'm already using the default 1920x1080 so I'm just not sure what I would fill out for all the values.
that a screen of the custom res that not what i'm talking about. this may work but there is no way to know for me the number you have to type in.
i would use screen shoot technic to figure the numbers out with some simple math. nvidia has an on screen guide to do that where you just have to line up some lines and every console too. AMD should have something like this too but i can'T check.
Quote:
Latest Windows 10 pro. One of the monitors (shows up as #1 under Windows) is actually a display port to hdmi adapter w/HDMI cable going to my AVR (my AVR is too old to use as a switch). The actual monitor being used is of course my TV (via standard HDMI cable).
so "one of your monitors" soi you have 2 or more?
i still need a screen shoot of the OSD to get a better picture.
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Old 10th January 2019, 08:44   #54190  |  Link
glc650
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
that a screen of the custom res that not what i'm talking about. this may work but there is no way to know for me the number you have to type in.
i would use screen shoot technic to figure the numbers out with some simple math. nvidia has an on screen guide to do that where you just have to line up some lines and every console too. AMD should have something like this too but i can'T check.
Sorry I don't follow.

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so "one of your monitors" soi you have 2 or more?
No. I only have one monitor/tv/display hooked up. But I also have an AVR hooked up (but for audio only).

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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
i still need a screen shoot of the OSD to get a better picture.
What OSD? The TVs?
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:56   #54191  |  Link
huhn
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No. I only have one monitor/tv/display hooked up. But I also have an AVR hooked up (but for audio only).
that's a dual screen setup for windows and that can easily produce presentation glitches.
Quote:
What OSD? The TVs?
control+j the madVR OSD where you saw the presentation gliches.
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:17   #54192  |  Link
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can some of you video experten please comment on my Q below. i am going slightly troppo trying to setup mpc-hc madvr for playing 4k video files on my HTPC

setup. intel 4770k i7 (haswell) , 32 gb ram, 1060 3gb, with latest lav and madvr on win 8.1 64 bit
display: 1080 tv with 10/12 bit RGB 4.4.4 60fpsec input setting confirmed as working correctly over hdmi 1.4 input

Q: with some of the earlier advice given in this thread i can now play many of my 4k video files fairly well (will need further tweaking in madvr for quality improvement) eg many 4k AVC and 4k HEVC files at different frame rates, mbsec, and bit depth rates
- cpu load +/- 20%, GPU load 50-60 % with only 50 - 60 % of 3GB vram used usually

but some 4k video files play very poorly (lots of stutters) , and their specs all seem to be 4k AVC 10 bit rec 709 with HDR
.
- cpu load goes bezerk to 98%, but GPU activity drops to 10% and only 20% of gpu vram used
- i am aware 4k bluray discs should be using HEVC, but some of the 4k test files i found online seem to be AVC and include official 4k promotion files provided by samsung or sony etc..

do i have a setup error in mpc-hc madvr options that is shifting the workload to the CPU ? how can i divert this to the GPU ?

or am i using some "out of spec" test video files
(found online) that are not compliant with the video decoder instruction set of my pascal GPU ?
these nvidia spec sheets would seem to suggest that for 4k AVC video files the limit might be 8 bit ?
https://developer.nvidia.com/nvidia-video-codec-sdk
https://developer.nvidia.com/video-e...support-matrix
- the confusing part is that the next newer nvidia series (2070 etc) according to those same spec sheets seem to have similar limitation with 4k 10 bit AVC files, and i would have expected newer hardware to gradually increase features

and if my logic so far is correct, does the pascal GPU simply then defaults to letting the CPU try and deal with the video file and this overloads its processing ? (explaining the stuttering video on screen, but madvr is not reporting any dropped frames ?), and are newer intel cpu's able to cope with hardware decoding/playing this file format ?

Last edited by zapatista; 10th January 2019 at 10:20.
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:28   #54193  |  Link
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AVC 10 bit isn't supported by hardware decoder and this will nearly for sure never change.

so looks like your CPU can't handle it. AVC decoding scales pretty well with more core so they a newer high end consumer CPU may play it in realtime.
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:36   #54194  |  Link
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Originally Posted by zapatista View Post
the confusing part is that the next newer nvidia series (2070 etc) according to those same spec sheets seem to have similar limitation with 4k 10 bit AVC files, and i would have expected newer hardware to gradually increase features
10-bit AVC/H.264 has never been used commercially, and practically no consumer hardware supports it. Additionally, no-one is going to invest into improving AVC support now, because if you want 10-bit, you use newer codecs like HEVC, VP9 or maybe even AV1 already, all of which have (or will have) hardware support.
Honestly if anyone makes 10-bit AVC files with HDR, they are just doing it wrong. Use HEVC, or VP9.
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Old 10th January 2019, 11:28   #54195  |  Link
glc650
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that's a dual screen setup for windows and that can easily produce presentation glitches.
Except it didn't with my previous video card. And it doesn't with the new video *IF* HDMI scaling is at 0. And I have to cable my system up this way as I've had too many issues when using my AVR as and HDMI switch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
control+j the madVR OSD where you saw the presentation gliches.
Well now I'm getting another result with scaling on lots of dropped frames and high queue times. Before it was lots of glitches with normal queue times.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnsGKXR_EKR0hCfOm_6m0n5aXCFL
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Old 10th January 2019, 12:29   #54196  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
What does this mean ?
I had to read @huhn's answer couple of times as well to understand it

Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
I have a rec709 3dlut (2.4 gamma)
...
Should I make a rec709 lut for 2.2 gamma ?
Exactly that's why I asked it, thanks!

What target nits setting do you use with gamma 2.4 3dlut? And what's the actual brightness of your display? (See below why ...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sat4all View Post
fhoech (Displaycal): ...

So you should make an rec709 lut for 2.2 gamma.
Thanks for quoting! Perfect answer!

I watched contents with 2.4 gamma 3dlut + hdr2sdr pixelshader on SDR TV in the last 3 months: screen brightness is ~120 nits, I use target nits 120 (!) in madVR. The result is vivid/alive and still nothing too bright with these settings. (The only (obvious) title was (out of those I watched) The Meg with which I had to modify the target nits value.)

After reading your answer and creating a 2.2 gamma 3dlut@120nits for the TV yesterday, I compared couple of frames (although it's not that easy since you have to look at them on the actual display, after changing every settings in madVR and on the TV as well) with the new and previous settings. This is what happened (I compared the 2.2 frames to the 2.4 ones, since I got used to latter one in the past months):
- to reach similar (but not the same!) results with gamma 2.2 I had to raise the target nits to at least 150 but with some frames in the same movie even to 180/200
- images are more alive, have more pop with 2.4 settings than with the raised 2.2 settings (maybe over-saturation, higher gamma, etc ?)

It's like gamma 2.4 would balance the brightness of the content more.
I'm not telling that it's the correct way to use it, all I'm telling is how it behaves.

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as i said before i'm not a friend of this inconsistent behaviour between HDR and SDR.
Thanks, what do you think would be a better approach?
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Old 10th January 2019, 12:30   #54197  |  Link
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@ nevcairiel & huhn,

thank you for the clarification
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Old 10th January 2019, 13:00   #54198  |  Link
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Except it didn't with my previous video card. And it doesn't with the new video *IF* HDMI scaling is at 0. And I have to cable my system up this way as I've had too many issues when using my AVR as and HDMI switch.

Well now I'm getting another result with scaling on lots of dropped frames and high queue times. Before it was lots of glitches with normal queue times.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnsGKXR_EKR0hCfOm_6m0n5aXCFL
its unusual to have scaling issues these days with a HDTV, have you got an odd aspect ratio on your TV, what model is it, assume you are not using two displays?


You may also have better luck using FSE, turning off motion smoothing and using refresh rate switching.
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Old 10th January 2019, 14:03   #54199  |  Link
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Thanks, what do you think would be a better approach?
move it to color & gamma by adding a HDR-SDR gamma processing that is ticked by default with pure gamma curve 2.20 and a warning to not change it.
this makes sure you can still properly gamma process SDR and don't ruin HDR with this option.

this makes sure gamma is only processed with this tab and well 3D LUTs so it is consistent as it should be.

the next thing i would add is an info in the 3d LUT what the gamma this 3D LUT target is so this will be treated like "this display is already calibrated" and you are done with 3D LUT and get the correct gamma.

i guess for BT 1886 you take the effective gamma and add this as an info. it's usually between 2.1-2.4 and this is better then nothing.

@glc650
windows is changing the WDDM driver like they have nothing better to do. your old card may just use an older better working WDDM i have no deeper look into this i just know they change it and this can produce presentation issue with are pretty normal with 2 screens.

try dx9 FSE. overlay would be a workaround too. but i doubt AMD added it.
it's clearly an presentation issue.
if it comes from the scaling alone and no other combinations of settings you need to send an custom resolution and hope the TV except it this is an advanced topic. doesn't look like amd has an resize feature someone else would have pointed out the name of it in this thread already the HDMI scaling or custom resolution are not the same.
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Old 10th January 2019, 14:23   #54200  |  Link
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its unusual to have scaling issues these days with a HDTV, have you got an odd aspect ratio on your TV, what model is it, assume you are not using two displays?


You may also have better luck using FSE, turning off motion smoothing and using refresh rate switching.
It's 16:9. Mitsubishi LaserView 65". I have a TV attached to the only HDMI port on the card and an AVR attached to one of the display ports with a DP to HDMI adapter (I can't use my AVR as an HDMI switch). FSE doesn't work for me even with scaling at 0. I have to use motion smoothing as my TV doesn't handle 23/24 properly.
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