madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[e-t172]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

A perfectly matched frame rate is perfect playback. There are 24 images in the source per second. You display each of them for 1/24th of a second. No artifacts or motion judder are introduced; what is the compromise? What are shutter settings going to do? All methods besides a matched refresh rate have compromises.

edit:


Describing what happens using 24p:
"The people seated at the table come apart at the seams, the tuxes flash and strobe, the Casino Royale logo on the card table blinks like a neon sign."

That post doesn't make any sense, what is wrong with their projector?!

What you're saying is not absolutely true if you consider the fact that modern fixed panel displays are "sample and hold" (i.e. the image is displayed for 1/24th of a second), while traditional cinema projectors and CRTs are more of the flicker type (the image is displayed as a very short impulse, each image often displayed twice or thrice to prevent eyestrain).

It is my understanding that motion with flicker-type displays is typically perceived as much smoother and natural compared to sample-and-hold displays. It is even argued that the rationale behind motion interpolation features of modern TVs is to compensate for that difference.

[Warner306]

Originally Posted by e-t172

What you're saying is not absolutely true if you consider the fact that modern fixed panel displays are "sample and hold" (i.e. the image is displayed for 1/24th of a second), while traditional cinema projectors and CRTs are more of the flicker type (the image is displayed as a very short impulse, each image often displayed twice or thrice to prevent eyestrain).

It is my understanding that motion with flicker-type displays is typically perceived as much smoother and natural compared to sample-and-hold displays. It is even argued that the rationale behind motion interpolation features of modern TVs is to compensate for that difference.

Yes, that is all I was saying. Film has always been shot at 24fps, but, when projected, it appears to be moving faster to due to flicker of the shutter. I've read most films are exposed for 1/48 of a second (showing you 24 unique images but 48 flashes of light). This shutter speed is fast enough to be unnoticeable to most human eyes but has the effect of masking the low frame rate of the movie.

When brought to the digital flat panel market, the low frame rate is no longer masked by changing the exposure and panning scenes are revealed as being slow and choppy. The artifacts I've seen could likely be due to the TV's 24p mode more than anything. I don't know.

So native 24hz playback is not quite the exact same experience as the original projection.

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by e-t172

What you're saying is not absolutely true if you consider the fact that modern fixed panel displays are "sample and hold" (i.e. the image is displayed for 1/24th of a second), while traditional cinema projectors and CRTs are more of the flicker type (the image is displayed as a very short impulse, each image often displayed twice or thrice to prevent eyestrain).

It is my understanding that motion with flicker-type displays is typically perceived as much smoother and natural compared to sample-and-hold displays. It is even argued that the rationale behind motion interpolation features of modern TVs is to compensate for that difference.

Sample and Hold v.s. Flicker is an independent issue. You still want a matched refresh rate.

Movie theaters display each frame 2 or 3 times to avoid nasty flickering. My display also has a flickering mode (5 times per frame viewing 24p) but this doesn't improve the apparent smoothness, it reduces the apparent motion blur. It does work better on high frame rate content so motion interpolation has a benefit there. With multiple flickers you get apparent ghosting as your eyes track moving objects while the object is actually still for multiple refreshes. I do think the bright line refresh of CRTs and shutter movement of a theater projector is better with this than a backlight flickering sample and hold display but again this doesn't change the fact that matched refresh rates are ideal.

[Warner306]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

I can believe the frame blending bothers you but it also sounds like your TV is doing something odd. There should be no lip sync drifting issues in 24 Hz mode v.s. 60 Hz mode.

I have fought with having perfect lip sync at 1080p24 for months. I found an entire thread dedicated to this issue in the Kodi forums. In fact, it is how I wound up using MPC in the first place. I thought ReClock would take care of it. I think the blame lies with my 60F7500 Samsung due to the fact my laptop displays the exact same problem using the same software.

The tightest lip sync was achieved with build 1.4.4 of MPC-BE using the improved MPC Audio Renderer. It is near perfect, but my TV still seems to exhibit more drift than in 60hz mode.

Given a ho-hum experience using 24p mode, I don't feel like I am missing a lot by sticking with 60hz playback. I am happy with it as is.

[bytheway]

Originally Posted by madshi

I've no idea. I like Maxwell for its power efficiency. AMD fixing the D3D9 interop performance problem would be something that I find exciting, but I kinda doubt that's going to happen.

The last time I was looking into GPUs 3-4 years ago nvidia had the big advantage because of CUVID. Is that still the case or are both AMD and nvidia on a level playing field?

[Warner306]

Originally Posted by bytheway

The last time I was looking into GPUs 3-4 years ago nvidia had the big advantage because of CUVID. Is that still the case or are both AMD and nvidia on a level playing field?

If you are using LAV Filters with madVR, DXVA2 copy-back is known to offer better performance than CUVID. The latest LAV Filters (0.64) likely widened this gap even more. Both AMD and Nvidia work well with DXVA2 copy-back.

This thread offers a lot of information about this topic: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=80258.0.

[rack04]

Originally Posted by cyberbeing

On my system with a GTX 770, this driver is bugged with madVR "Error Diffusion - Option 1" dithering. As far as I can tell, this issue does not occur with any of the other dithering modes.

Thin vertical dotted line columns are displayed over the video, evenly spaced exactly 16px apart. Same issue with 347.12 which was bundled with the Cuda 7 RC, which was the first public driver to have this problem. The previous 347.09 WHQL geforce driver and prior have no issues.

Can anyone else reproduce this?

Can anyone confirm if this has been fixed by Nvidia yet?

[6233638]

Originally Posted by e-t172

I was looking for a latency tester as well, but I just couldn't bring myself to spending this kind of money on a box that listens to a flash and a beep, seems like a rip-off to me. So I made my own instead, using only three components <snip>

Very nice work.
That is along the lines of what I had originally hoped to do, but I was unable to find details on how this might be achieved (people doing similar things were using oscilloscopes rather than a sound card) and I actually do occasional AV calibration work so it suits me a lot more to have a stand-alone device like this which can just go with the rest of my kit.
If you're just setting up one display, one source, and you have a laptop with a suitable mic input, that definitely seems like a good option.
I realize that it is expensive for a "basic" device, but it's entirely self-contained, you get immediate results, it incorporates data logging, and anyone can use it. While expensive for what it is, it's probably the least-expensive part of my calibration gear.

Originally Posted by leeperry

Great tool though for perfect A/V sync indeed, I relied on a review of my TV that mentioned 28ms input lag and this figure would appear to do wonders with headphones once set as an audio delay in ffdshow.

There are a lot more things which affect latency than the display. Even with the display, many settings may influence the latency. (refresh rate, picture mode etc.)
My display is about 20ms when measured at 60Hz in game mode--the number you are likely to see published in a review--but I need a total correction of 156ms for AV sync when everything is taken into account. (display at 24Hz, in film mode rather than game, separate audio device latency, video player latency, VST plug-in latency etc.)

[TheRyuu]

Originally Posted by madshi

However, I don't think I'll fix #256, as discussed/explained earlier here in the forum. Furthermore the cardinal value 256 is outside of 8bit, so I can't fix it, anyway, as long as madVR is limited to 8bit output (just kidding).

I'm afraid I don't follow. Nothing you're saying is related to that bug report... are we looking at the same one?

[resides]

Originally Posted by Warner306

If you are using LAV Filters with madVR, DXVA2 copy-back is known to offer better performance than CUVID. The latest LAV Filters (0.64) likely widened this gap even more. Both AMD and Nvidia work well with DXVA2 copy-back.

How does Intel QuickSync compare? I'm using LAV and having an i7 with Intel HD Graphics. My reasoning is to use the CPU/GPU (Intel HD GFX) for video decoding and to use the NVIDIA GPU for madVR.

I do notice the most gains with madVR, but not too much in using the various hardware acceleration modes like NVIDIA CUDA, Intel QuickSync, DXVA2 (both native and copyback). All look the same to me.

[ryrynz]

Originally Posted by madshi

The reason why this problem is not well known is that most people either have matching fps / refresh rate setups (which is normally really the best solution), or alternatively they're usually using smooth motion and turn motion interpolation in their displays off.

I figured there would be way more people playing on monitors at 60Hz than anything else TBH and most of them playing 24fps content.

Originally Posted by madshi

Can't your TV accept 24fps input and then display that in 60Hz, using motion interpolation? That would be what most of today's TVs do, and I would expect the best results with this, if you want to use the TV's motion interpolation algorithm.

I'm fairly certain it does just that.

Using 60Hz with frame creation creates a few issues for me. First one of course is MadVR's 3:2 display breaking it, next switching panning directions frame creation stutters for a second or two and lastly when seeking on occasion there will be massive stuttering that only a new seek fixes, frame creation is not very forgiving it seems. Running at 24Hz fixes all of these.

Originally Posted by Asmodian

24p is not fast enough so panning shots are not smooth but using 3/2 pulldown to play at 60 Hz simply adds judder and does not improve anything. Again, maybe your TV is doing something odd like ryrynz's?

Mine isn't doing anything weird, it's just not tolerant of MadVR's 3:2 pulldown pattern.

Originally Posted by Warner306

I don't think anyone who uses 24p playback can admit that panning shots do not contain judder and artifacts are not introduced (one of the most offensive examples of artifacts are found on the windows of the building in the opening pan shot of The Dark Knight)

If I use 24Hz and disable frame creation everything looks fine to me, although honestly I prefer 60Hz with Smooth Motion instead of just 24Hz without frame creation.
I can't imagine how "artifacts are introduced" when you're playing it in it's unadulterated form. Really there is no way around it, if you want "smooth motion" you need to pay the price
with artifacts to do it, whether it's intelligent frame creation on the display, SVP or MadVR's Smooth Motion or something similar. Personally I can't stand juddering pans and scrolls.. so
frame creation it has to be for me. I see the odd artifact (a sort of accidental estimation) that even the latest TVs still do but considering what it gives me in smoothness I can't complain.
If you don't have something similar run SVP.. it's quality isn't that far behind what you'll find in today's 100Hz or similar TV's. It's demanding though and It will crank your fan speed up.

Quick OT. Can anyone care to enlighten me why there's no judder during panning at the cinemas with what would be standard 24fps films?

[kalston]

Originally Posted by ryrynz

Quick OT. Can anyone care to enlighten me why there's no judder during panning at the cinemas with what would be standard 24fps films?

I always see the 24fps judder at the cinemas actually. I didn't really notice back in the days (like 7 years ago or so), but once I got a 72hz display at home and started using madVR, I suddenly started paying attention to that kind of thing.

24fps is just too low a framerate.

[ice25]

Originally Posted by 6233638

The tester just measures the delay between a flash on-screen and a tone being played.
It wouldn't be able to test how stable the video presentation is compared to a Blu-ray player, if that's what you mean.

Been using this same device for about 4 months now, sure it's expensive but i couldn't live without it at this point. Just having perfect A/V sync and more importantly knowing that you are absolutely in sync with what you see on the screen from the distance and position you are sitting is very satisfying.
Before i had a way to check the audio sync i was never really sure if everything was perfectly synced. It's crazy how far you can be out of sync but still think everything is fine.
What i noticed is that there are definately some settings in various software (reclock, mpc, madvr, etc) that have an influence on the A/V sync, and without any ability to check what the result is on the sync it's impossible to say if you are in front of behind with the audio.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by Patrik G

you also get pulldown judder with 24p content at 50hz right?
thats why i probably can use 50hz from the pc and still motion is great without judder with 24p content.

smooth motion saves it i guess.

Yes, you would get pulldown judder with 24p @ 50Hz, it just wouldn't be 3:2, but something completely different. And thanks for the feedback!

Originally Posted by Warner306

Also, I do have a 24p mode on my TV and the playback is better, but not substantially so. But it looks nothing like smooth motion.

I would guess that your display then internally reapplies 3:2 pulldown judder and internally refreshes at 60Hz. Just a guess, of course...

Originally Posted by Warner306

there is no need to be in fear of 3/2 pulldown

Well, for me pulldown judder is extremely annoying. I absolutely hate it. That might have to do with me living in PAL land, where movies are sped up from 24p to 25p by increasing the playback rate, and then they're shown in 50Hz. So there's never been pulldown here in PAL land.

Originally Posted by TheRyuu

I'm afraid I don't follow. Nothing you're saying is related to that bug report... are we looking at the same one?

All I've said was meant to be a joke, because your bug report happened to have the ID 0x100. But I was serious about not "fixing" your bug report 256. You had reported this earlier in this thread, and I had explained why it's the way it is, and why I don't plan on doing anything about it. My opinion hasn't changed about that.

Originally Posted by ryrynz

I figured there would be way more people playing on monitors at 60Hz than anything else TBH and most of them playing 24fps content.

There are many people playing on computer monitors at 60Hz, that's absolutely correct. But most computer monitors don't have any sort of motion interpolation. That's usually a feature offered by TVs, not by computer monitors. And those monitors/TVs which do offer motion interpolation, don't usually take 60fps input, decimate it back to 24fps and then motion interpolate it up to 60fps. It's really rare and weird what your TV is doing there.

Originally Posted by ryrynz

Using 60Hz with frame creation creates a few issues for me. First one of course is MadVR's 3:2 display breaking it, next switching panning directions frame creation stutters for a second or two and lastly when seeking on occasion there will be massive stuttering that only a new seek fixes, frame creation is not very forgiving it seems. Running at 24Hz fixes all of these.

If I use 24Hz and disable frame creation everything looks fine to me, although honestly I prefer 60Hz with Smooth Motion instead of just 24Hz without frame creation.

Why don't you use 24Hz and enable frame creation? Shouldn't that produce identical results to sending 60Hz with enabled frame creation?

[ryrynz]

Originally Posted by madshi

There are many people playing on computer monitors at 60Hz, that's absolutely correct. But most computer monitors don't have any sort of motion interpolation. That's usually a feature offered by TVs, not by computer monitors. And those monitors/TVs which do offer motion interpolation, don't usually take 60fps input, decimate it back to 24fps and then motion interpolate it up to 60fps. It's really rare and weird what your TV is doing there.

I'm not aware of any monitors that do, it doesn't make much sense to add it considering the application, it's almost a shame really.

What is it about my results that makes you think it does 60->24->60?

Originally Posted by madshi

Why don't you use 24Hz and enable frame creation? Shouldn't that produce identical results to sending 60Hz with enabled frame creation?

That's what I'm doing, identical results without those three issues I mentioned, two if I use something other than MadVR which is almost as good..
But I just hate anything breaking the smoothness of frame creation so 60Hz is out during video playback. Never thought 3:2 and 60Hz would be such a downer for video playback.. live and learn.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by ryrynz

What is it about my results that makes you think it does 60->24->60?

Well, you said that if you feed your display 60Hz with a proper 3:2 pulldown cadence, with enabled frame interpolation, then you get perfectly smooth movie credits. That's only possible if the TV does 60 -> 24 -> 60. You can't get smooth scrolling credits if the pulldown judder is still there. So if you get smooth results, your TV must be removing the pulldown judder.

Originally Posted by ryrynz

That's what I'm doing, identical results without those three issues I mentioned, two if I use something other than MadVR which is almost as good..
But I just hate anything breaking the smoothness of frame creation so 60Hz is out during video playback. Never thought 3:2 and 60Hz would be such a downer for video playback.. live and learn.

I'm still not 100% sure if I understand you correctly. Why do you wish to use 60Hz at all? Using 24Hz output of your GPU with enabled frame interpolation in your TV sounds like the perfect setup, if you like frame interpolation. Why do you have any desire to output 60Hz from your PC? Doing so only makes life harder for your TV. I don't see which benefit you're hoping to get from that...

[ryrynz]

Originally Posted by madshi

Well, you said that if you feed your display 60Hz with a proper 3:2 pulldown cadence, with enabled frame interpolation, then you get perfectly smooth movie credits. That's only possible if the TV does 60 -> 24 -> 60. You can't get smooth scrolling credits if the pulldown judder is still there. So if you get smooth results, your TV must be removing the pulldown judder.

Oh yeah, that's pretty cool now that I think about it.

Originally Posted by madshi

I'm still not 100% sure if I understand you correctly. Why do you wish to use 60Hz at all?

I don't, I've only stated how it doesn't work as well, but in some cases does a fairly good job. It's just not good enough that I'd want to continue using it.

Originally Posted by madshi

Using 24Hz output of your GPU with enabled frame interpolation in your TV sounds like the perfect setup

It works nicely, I only wish the TV would work with 0-255 via HDMI rather than just DVI, doesn't seem to be any way around it other than removing the audio block (not good when you have a receiver in the chain)
I tried a HDMI to DVI adapter but that didn't change anything, ah well It's not perfect but at least it's smooth.

[madshi]

Ah, I see. So the imperfect 3:2 pulldown used by the current madVR build doesn't really bother you at all. You just noticed it, correct? I think since the introduction of smooth motion FRC most users don't use madVR's pulldown, anymore. Instead most users either have a matching framerate / refresh rate setup, or they use smooth motion FRC. So although I'm aware of that the pulldown needs an improvement, I don't think it's very urgent...

[ryrynz]

Originally Posted by madshi

Ah, I see. So the imperfect 3:2 pulldown used by the current madVR build doesn't really bother you at all. You just noticed it, correct? I think since the introduction of smooth motion FRC most users don't use madVR's pulldown, anymore. Instead most users either have a matching framerate / refresh rate setup, or they use smooth motion FRC. So although I'm aware of that the pulldown needs an improvement, I don't think it's very urgent...

Doesn't really bother me any when using the PC if Smooth Motion is enabled. On the TV with FRC on medium the pulldown issue breaks the FRC quite badly. I suspect anyone using 59/60Hz with any frame creation on is likely to run into the same issue, but how many are there out there doing that? Nobody's really mentioned anything up until this point so.. no big deal.

Not sure if the pulldown problem is related at all, but sometimes I don't have consistent smooth frame delivery on the PC. It's just the odd small jump whilst replaying panning scenes. It could just be that it occurs after seeking (clock related?) Will maybe do a comparison once 0.88 is out.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by ryrynz

I suspect anyone using 59/60Hz with any frame creation on is likely to run into the same issue, but how many are there out there doing that?

Anyone using frame creation is probably using 24Hz output, which is really the best solution.