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Old 31st July 2021, 11:33   #61821  |  Link
chros
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
if it is the same issue i may not be affected at all.
...
edit: my current 3D LUT does not seem to expose the issue. it's hard to judge with the coating of this TV...
It should be trivial to see (assuming brightness/contrast are at their bypass default settings on the TV):
- full-full-full: only 234 is blinking
- limited-full-limited: 254 is also blinking

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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
BTW. the 3D LUT doesn't at all it's always limited range as input and just to stop the confusion this is irrelevant for output ranges.
Good point, but this is how it works here.

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Game of Thrones "The Long Night" is a great HDR banding test... the first scenes where Dani rides in on the Dragon and the fire on the inky black night... then shortly after that, when Jon rides away and looks back... If needed I can find the actually timestamps...
I understand your point of course, but GoT UHD is DoVi, so ...
CX and C1 should be way better than our old 2018 models, we're still waiting for the new owners to test couple of scenarios
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Old 31st July 2021, 11:47   #61822  |  Link
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Originally Posted by chros View Post
CX and C1 should be way better than our old 2018 models, we're still waiting for the new owners to test couple of scenarios
Right. PM me here with what you would like to see tested. I'm in the middle of calibration, setup, whatever... but the TV has now already 350 hours on it, so it should ok to test stuff.
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Old 31st July 2021, 12:41   #61823  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
I don't understand your setup. I think I am going with madVR limited, Nvidia RGB full, OLED limited.



Where does YCbCr enter the picture and why?
You'll be fine with that most likely. I wouldn't go looking for issues though. My c8 has issues with rgb input which is why I use YCbCr instead of rgb. This gives me the cleanest picture on my c8. But because YCbCr is limited, madvr gets set to full. As I've said, this setup is crazy wrong and not really the way it's supposed to be. If I ever upgrade my c8 I can get off this ride. Lol

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Old 31st July 2021, 15:51   #61824  |  Link
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Originally Posted by chros View Post
CX and C1 should be way better than our old 2018 models, we're still waiting for the new owners to test couple of scenarios
I got the G1 with the Evo panel, but I haven't had much time yet to do detail comparisons.

If typical problem scenarios were documented somewhere, I could also check at some point
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Old 31st July 2021, 17:11   #61825  |  Link
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You'll be fine with that most likely. I wouldn't go looking for issues though. My c8 has issues with rgb input which is why I use YCbCr instead of rgb. This gives me the cleanest picture on my c8. But because YCbCr is limited, madvr gets set to full. As I've said, this setup is crazy wrong and not really the way it's supposed to be. If I ever upgrade my c8 I can get off this ride. Lol
I use YCbCr 4:4:4 in the Intel driver settings to my monitor. The reason is because I find using RGB on this PC a little more straining on the eyes (maybe too many layers of dithering?). I have a displayport to hdmi active adapter between the PC and monitor as well. The difference is subtle but it is there. One thing I can observe when set to ycbcr in the driver is that 10-16 bit greyscale gradients in a regular image viewer will show slight subtle bands onscreen that RGB mode doesn't which tells me that the Intel driver dithers when set to RGB mode before sending it out to the monitor which then applies temporal dithering on top of it. Having MadVR's dithering options active does smooth these bands out so I am not sold that images need to be dithered 3 times in a more standard processing chain (madvr, windows driver, monitor panel).

Now I am wondering something.. source material is YUV for video. MadVR converts from YUV to RGB to do its processing, and then in my case, the Intel driver converts it back to YUV (YCbCr). I wonder if there is a way to tell MadVR to stay in the YCbCr space instead of RGB? Then the whole chain to the monitor (which displays YPbPr oddly enough) could stay YCC all the way through.

There is a special madvr filename flag you can set, "YCbCr: Outputs YCbCr data instead of RGB, as if it was RGB." I tried it once, and all it did was make the video pink and green so it's not what I expected. I wonder under what circumstances it is used, it must have been made for some display somewhere. My assumption is that the reason it looks pink and green like that is because Windows then converts the MadVR output to RGB and then the driver is converting it back to YUV which is why the colors look wrong. Pity that the OS itself can't be told to function in 4:4:4 YCbCr instead of RGB in the middle.
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Old 31st July 2021, 17:35   #61826  |  Link
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There is a way to tell madvr to process in YcbCr but it's definitely not recommended even if you're outputting YCbCr from the GPU. The reason is that the driver is expecting RGB and will do even more conversions internally from what I understand. There's no way to control this behavior in the driver. At least this is how I understand it and have seen it explained. The Envy can process everything in YCbCr.
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Old 31st July 2021, 18:15   #61827  |  Link
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the YCbCr option is for debugging not for use.

setting the driver to YCbCr adds morte conversation unlike with RGB.

"no" display can do YPbPr it only accepts it and does the RGB conversation itself.

LCD, plasma and even OLED have all RGB pixel so they need RGB data.
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Old 31st July 2021, 18:30   #61828  |  Link
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While you are technically correct about it being converted to RBG internally, with the LG OLEDs that conversion is done as a final step. All the processing is done internally on the YCbCr signal that it expects to receive. It's very likely why we see issues when sending it an RGB signal...it's very likely skipping some of that processing.
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Old 31st July 2021, 20:58   #61829  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
Right. PM me here with what you would like to see tested. I'm in the middle of calibration, setup, whatever... but the TV has now already 350 hours on it, so it should ok to test stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
I got the G1 with the Evo panel, but I haven't had much time yet to do detail comparisons.
If typical problem scenarios were documented somewhere, I could also check at some point
Thanks guys, here it is, only 3 test cases in it for now, I'll update it in the future if it will be necessary.
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Old 1st August 2021, 18:13   #61830  |  Link
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
While you are technically correct about it being converted to RBG internally, with the LG OLEDs that conversion is done as a final step. All the processing is done internally on the YCbCr signal that it expects to receive. It's very likely why we see issues when sending it an RGB signal...it's very likely skipping some of that processing.
is not about oled is at Sunspark.
i never claimed when and where RGB conversation is used only that it is.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 11:03   #61831  |  Link
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is not about oled is at Sunspark.
i never claimed when and where RGB conversation is used only that it is.
What?!?
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Old 2nd August 2021, 12:49   #61832  |  Link
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huhn meant his comment was not specifically about OLEDs, but was directed at Sunspark who asked how to keep video in YCC inside madVR's pipeline and said TVs display in YCC (which is not true even if they process in YCC before displaying in RGB).
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Old 2nd August 2021, 18:09   #61833  |  Link
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In the end, I feel it comes down to which part of the chain does the best job of converting from YUV to RGB. It's also an unknown what processing criteria is in the code in the display when it receives a signal. Are all display processing paths agnostic and the output is the same whether it receives a YUV 4:4:4 signal or RGB? I think the answer to that is it depends on what the manufacturer implemented since displays are now computers in their own right and we are generally not dealing with hardwired logic circuits anymore.

YUV-RGB(MadVR)-RGB(OS)-RGB(Video Drivers)-Display(RGB)
YUV-RGB(MadVR)-RGB(OS)-YUV(Video Drivers)-Display(RGB)

The video drivers portion matters as well because I am aware of the fact that for a long time Intel insisted that if you used the HDMI port to a "display television" (which is how my monitor is recognized by the drivers) it would change the level to 16-235 for you unless you glitched that with a registry setting or much later, new driver options to not do that. If you had your output traveling over displayport or dvi there was no forced level conversion. This is in addition to any software processing they may have been doing regarding dithering or image optimizations.

Intel also has an "IT Content" setting which is supposed to change something involving HDMI which was hard for me to get more information about because it's not well documented, but my understanding of it, the hdmi spec has different modes text, video, etc. and it content is a way of processing something differently involving those modes and the display. I was able to see a subtle rendering difference on my monitor with text and pictures changing the setting between on or off (I have it off on my setup). I am not sure if the difference came from the display processing it based on metadata received in the signal, or if the driver itself processed it.

I would be curious to know how this IT content flag affects the OLED displays discussed here.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 18:30   #61834  |  Link
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I would be curious to know how this IT content flag affects the OLED displays discussed here.
HDMI content type set in the video driver only triggers on LG 2021 models. Previous series simply ignore the setting. I only have experience with Nvidia's implementation, and with the LGs you can select either "Desktop programs" or "Full-screen videos". The TV will switch between PC mode and normal HDMI mode, depending on what is set. Other display brands have more/different options. The default when set to "Auto-select (recommended)" is "Desktop programs", by the way, which means that if you want to use normal HDMI mode on a 2021 model, you'll have to set this manually to "Full-screen videos".
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Old 2nd August 2021, 18:33   #61835  |  Link
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The IT content flag is just that, a flag, and it's the display that (optionally) changes its picture processing when it sees it.
It has been discussed before, you can find those discussions by searching for "content type nvidia" on here.
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Old 3rd August 2021, 09:08   #61836  |  Link
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
There is a way to tell madvr to process in YcbCr but it's definitely not recommended even if you're outputting YCbCr from the GPU. The reason is that the driver is expecting RGB and will do even more conversions internally from what I understand. There's no way to control this behavior in the driver. At least this is how I understand it and have seen it explained. The Envy can process everything in YCbCr.
The driver will expect the format specified by the application developer.
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Old 3rd August 2021, 10:45   #61837  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Sunspark View Post
In the end, I feel it comes down to which part of the chain does the best job of converting from YUV to RGB. It's also an unknown what processing criteria is in the code in the display when it receives a signal. Are all display processing paths agnostic and the output is the same whether it receives a YUV 4:4:4 signal or RGB? I think the answer to that is it depends on what the manufacturer implemented since displays are now computers in their own right and we are generally not dealing with hardwired logic circuits anymore.
I would trust to madVR. As practice shows, TV manufacturers are not worried about the passthrough of the RGB signal to the pixel matrix.
But if you really care about this, then you should output the RGB@60Hz from the PC, and set the HDMI TV input in the PC mode.

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Originally Posted by Sunspark View Post
Intel also has an "IT Content" setting which is supposed to change something involving HDMI which was hard for me to get more information about because it's not well documented, but my understanding of it, the hdmi spec has different modes text, video, etc. and it content is a way of processing something differently involving those modes and the display. I was able to see a subtle rendering difference on my monitor with text and pictures changing the setting between on or off (I have it off on my setup). I am not sure if the difference came from the display processing it based on metadata received in the signal, or if the driver itself processed it.

I would be curious to know how this IT content flag affects the OLED displays discussed here.
About the IT content
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Old 3rd August 2021, 15:10   #61838  |  Link
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Originally Posted by VBB View Post
HDMI content type set in the video driver only triggers on LG 2021 models. Previous series simply ignore the setting. I only have experience with Nvidia's implementation, and with the LGs you can select either "Desktop programs" or "Full-screen videos". The TV will switch between PC mode and normal HDMI mode, depending on what is set. Other display brands have more/different options. The default when set to "Auto-select (recommended)" is "Desktop programs", by the way, which means that if you want to use normal HDMI mode on a 2021 model, you'll have to set this manually to "Full-screen videos".
Not in my experience. But I will recheck.
Unless this is true after having set the input to PC mode. Gonna try and report back.

Edit: nope. Chroma remains at 4:2:2, no matter what content the driver reports. Unless you set the input as PC.
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Last edited by ashlar42; 3rd August 2021 at 17:21.
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Old 5th August 2021, 02:04   #61839  |  Link
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What Windows 10 build is recommended for MadVR? I'm still rocking Windows 8.1 on the HTPC, but the 3070 Ti I have on the way won't work under Windows 8.x even though there are Windows 7 drivers for it.
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Old 5th August 2021, 02:14   #61840  |  Link
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I'm running the latest W10 build and I've no issues.
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