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Old 6th May 2019, 20:46   #56161  |  Link
Klaus1189
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What exactly am I ignoring? Sorry I don‘t understand.
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Old 7th May 2019, 03:16   #56162  |  Link
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how about DLSS from RTX20XX?

and any news for madvr update?
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Old 7th May 2019, 04:14   #56163  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Klaus1189 View Post
What exactly am I ignoring? Sorry I don‘t understand.
You are ignoring what your TV is trying to do at the same time. Make sure all the motion improving features are off when using smooth motion, it breaks all of that stuff. I get smooth results using smooth motion to convert 50i -> 60p, lots of blended frames mean it is softer but it is smooth.

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how about DLSS from RTX20XX?

and any news for madvr update?
DLSS is not useful for madVR. Maybe madVR could make use of the new hardware DLSS and/or ray tracing runs on but DLSS itself is not applicable. Nvidia has not trained a neural net to upscale video. They should though; an upscaling neural net optimized on Nvidia data centers with many hundreds of thousands of hours of 4K video and needing a 2070+ to run might be able to give NGU some competition.

No news about future updates yet.
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Old 7th May 2019, 07:58   #56164  |  Link
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Originally Posted by wushantao View Post
how about DLSS from RTX20XX?
and any news for madvr update?
As above.
DLSS has nothing to do with madVR.
If we're lucky maybe an update in the third quarter.

Last edited by ryrynz; 7th May 2019 at 08:03.
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:41   #56165  |  Link
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No news about future updates yet.
I think this project has grown out 1 person's resources, especially with Envy
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Old 7th May 2019, 11:13   #56166  |  Link
Klaus1189
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I have always motion interpolation in my tvs off, as already stated. So nothing wrong here on my side. I don‘t like blended frames, these look ugly and are still not natural smooth. I use native refresh rates for several years now and very happy with it.
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Old 7th May 2019, 12:23   #56167  |  Link
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Look ugly? What? You can't even see the blended frames.. not naturally smooth? there's something wrong with your playback chain if it's not smooth but this is going to entirely depend on the content too..
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Old 7th May 2019, 12:35   #56168  |  Link
ashlar42
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How does this apply to a Direct Show playback chain?

In a typical (for madVR users at least) DS chain we have panel properties in maVR ("the display expects the following RGB output levels"), RGB output levels in LAV Video, GPU setting (for Nvidia "Adjust video color settings/Advanced/Dynamic Range) and, lastly the TV setting.

So far I've always understood that the best way to go was to have Full throughout the chain. The Kodi wiki confirms that you get correct range reproduction but states that this introduces an extra scaling process and makes calibration more difficult (as BTB and WTW are clipped). Is this true?
Kodi wiki suggests that using Limited (Kodi), Full (GPU), Limited (TV) avoids this scaling, at the cost of having the desktop overly dark. This would translate to Limited, Limited (madVR, LAV), Full (GPU), Limited (TV), I guess. Would this bring improved quality for video playback?
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
You are ignoring what your TV is trying to do at the same time. Make sure all the motion improving features are off when using smooth motion, it breaks all of that stuff. I get smooth results using smooth motion to convert 50i -> 60p, lots of blended frames mean it is softer but it is smooth.
Am I correct in understanding that running at 120Hz would get better results with SmoothMotion, compared to 60Hz? I ask because with HDMI 2.1 coming it will soon(ish) start to be possible.
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Old 7th May 2019, 13:00   #56169  |  Link
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SM should be double the source frame rate and as a high as possible.
at 120 hz or more all the issues with SM are pretty much gone.
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Old 7th May 2019, 13:09   #56170  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
Kodi wiki suggests that using Limited (Kodi), Full (GPU), Limited (TV) avoids this scaling, at the cost of having the desktop overly dark. This would translate to Limited, Limited (madVR, LAV), Full (GPU), Limited (TV), I guess. Would this bring improved quality for video playback?
No, not really because madVR is doing the conversion with dithering, so the scaling doesn't have any visual impact. It could be more of an issue with Kodi VideoPlayer, but even VideoPlayer now uses dithering for the conversion of 16-235 to 0-255.

Black and white clipping patterns can still be calibrated quite easily without BtB and WtW. The majority of PC users should be doing things this way.

If you read the first section of the madVR guide in my signature, this is explained in some detail.
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Old 7th May 2019, 14:43   #56171  |  Link
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16-235 to 0-255.

Black and white clipping patterns can still be calibrated quite easily without BtB and WtW. The majority of PC users should be doing things this way.

Doing this (basically 1D LUT) stuff by eye is ol'Skool, you can get the edge patches right , but without alot of training you can't get the middle patches to balance..
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Old 7th May 2019, 15:55   #56172  |  Link
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Sometimes it looks unnatural when people are moving, but it seems some are pissed off according to their post. So this is my last post about it for now.

I indeed see if something is natural 60p or something is not and blended together.
24p content should look like it looks, don’t use smooth motion. So much pain about perfect color and many use stock 60 Hz for everything, if they like it, silly me I don‘t like it.

The thing I am trying to show if you have a screen with max 60 Hz and use smooth motion for all you won‘t get perfect results for all source files, but if you switch to the matching refresh rate you will get perfect smooth playback, at least as much the soutce file can give you of it.

Download big buck bunny rendered at 60.000 hz and show me how I get this smoothness out of 50p played back at 60 Hz screen. But 50p at 50 hz looks great.

For higher refresh rate I don‘t have the equipment which supports 3840x2160p120 or more.
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Old 7th May 2019, 18:41   #56173  |  Link
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Matching refresh rates it optimal, of course. You argue that smooth motion is not smooth, which I disagree with, but 50p into 60 Hz uses too many blended frames. As huhn said, we want double the refresh rate or higher for smooth motion.

We do not recommend smooth motion for displaying 50 fps at 60 Hz.

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Download big buck bunny rendered at 60.000 hz and show me how I get this smoothness out of 50p played back at 60 Hz screen. But 50p at 50 hz looks great.
I am confused what this test is supposed to show? You believe smooth motion is not smooth (I think due to testing with a bad source) but just looking at a 60p source is not going to convince me you are correct. I already have the video, and other 4K 60p sources, what now?

Edit: Blue Planet II deinterlaced by LAV video to 50p and displayed at 60 Hz with smooth motion looks smooth to me.
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Last edited by Asmodian; 7th May 2019 at 18:48.
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Old 7th May 2019, 18:47   #56174  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
In a typical DS chain we have panel properties in maVR, RGB output levels in LAV Video, GPU setting and, lastly the TV setting.
btw, that setting in LAV only applies when it's doing the YCC to RGB conversion itself, which rarely happens when playing commercial content in DS (usually passing NV12 or P010 to the renderer).
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The Kodi wiki [...] states that this introduces an extra scaling process and makes calibration more difficult (as BTB and WTW are clipped). Is this true?
I don't get what the Kodi wiki means by 'scaling' and at what step. If they mean in the PC renderer, it has to do a conversion to RGB anyway and in madVR's case there's a conversion to another internal format for high precision processing so it's best to then output with the biggest precision possible at the end which is full range. If they mean the TV would have to do an extra processing step to display a full range RGB signal instead of a limited range, I don't see how that would lower quality. On the contrary, with everything else being equal, using a more limited range of digital values to display an image is equivalent to lowering the bit depth, and you lose precision.
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Old 7th May 2019, 18:52   #56175  |  Link
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It should show that 50p is not suitable for smooth motion on 60 Hz screen. And of course that 50 fps is not worse in terms of smoothness just because there are 10 fps less. Beginners could think that. The refresh rate of the screen matters.

I personally don‘t have anything against users who want to use smooth motion, they just have also to know it downsides and limitations.

Matching refresh rates are worth a try especially if I look at people discussing details to death but watching a 24p movie on 60Hz mode without smooth motion.

Motion „resolution“ is probably a point missing in some playing setups of some users, not hard to set it up. Huge difference.
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Old 7th May 2019, 18:57   #56176  |  Link
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I don't get what the Kodi wiki means by 'scaling' and at what step.
That is a misunderstanding of how limited range YCbCr gets converted to full range RGB. They think one YCbCr -> RGB step gets turned into two steps, the conversion of YCbCr to RGB and a conversion of limited range to full range. In reality madVR simply uses a different matrix for YCbCr -> RGB to get full range RGB so the number of steps does not change and there is no extra scaling process.

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And of course that 50 fps is not worse in terms of smoothness just because there are 10 fps less.
Of course! At best you only get the smoothness of the source when using smooth motion. And no one is arguing that matching the refresh rate is not preferred, only that smooth motion is smooth even with 50p at 60 Hz!

Yes, matching refresh rates can be worth it. You do not need to say smooth motion is not smooth to say this, you can stick to explaining the real limitations of smooth motion.
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Last edited by Asmodian; 7th May 2019 at 19:01.
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Old 7th May 2019, 19:24   #56177  |  Link
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50i/p with smooth motion @60hz doesnt work "perfect" for all kind of sources (i.e. live sport @50hz). Its still way better for "60hz only PC monitors" than without smoothmotion, but I prefer a matching refresh rate too if possible.

For 23/24p sources (film content) @60hz with smooth motion works very well for me.
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Old 7th May 2019, 19:27   #56178  |  Link
Klaus1189
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50i/p with smooth motion @60hz doesnt work "perfect" for all kind of sources (i.e. live sport @50hz). Its still way better for "60hz only PC monitors" than without smoothmotion, but I prefer a matching refresh rate too if possible.
I fully agree. But there was, probably still is a feature in madvr to add other refresh rates for 60hz only monitors. I don‘t need it now so I am not sure.

Last edited by Klaus1189; 7th May 2019 at 19:29.
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Old 7th May 2019, 20:59   #56179  |  Link
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Speaking of refresh rates, I have an optimised 71.928 hz for 23.976 fps movies, do I need to make another one for example 72 hz for 24 fps movies?
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Old 7th May 2019, 21:06   #56180  |  Link
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Yes, just google intel 24p bug, there were 23.976 files played at 24.000 so every 42 secs a repeated frame was shown. You need two different refresh rates for these two similar but different framerates.
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