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Old 29th July 2021, 22:09   #61801  |  Link
huhn
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xy does the internal renderer doesn't.
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Old 30th July 2021, 05:04   #61802  |  Link
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I'm not so sure about the whole sharpness is the same aspect. It might be player specific because even with two different ones set to use the internal subtitle renderer and both set to use "desktop" as the texture resolution, one is sharper than the other. But on mpc-be xysubfilter is noticeably sharper than the internal renderer set to desktop on my system. Whereas on mpc-hc (1.7.13) it doesn't make a difference, both internal and xysubfilter are both sharp so it makes sense to use the internal one to reduce gpu load otherwise it will be 3x load. The converse is true on mpc-be because xysubfilter does not increase gpu load when paired with the mpc video renderer so in that player xysubfilter should be used instead of the internal subtitle renderer if you are using d3d9 as I am.

The subtitle moving support in madvr, I don't believe it works all that well with the internal subtitle renderer in mpc-hc because I did test it out. Made sure dxva2 copy-back was being used because I determined the following things: subtitle moving will not take place if you do not have black bar detection turned on (which in turn is dependent on having copy-back). When this condition is met, and the subtitle is moved, only one of the two options works well. Moving into the active video area does work and will move the subtitle into the video picture itself. However, most people want the subtitle below for non 16:9 content, and the option "move subtitles to bottom of screen/window" just doesn't work at all. So, in that scenario don't even waste your time with that option. Leave it off along with black bar detection off since you won't need them, and instead in subtitle style settings for the margin for top and bottom, change it from 20 to 1. It'll be a compromise. Subtitles with 2 lines will be nicely centered in the black portion below the video. Subtitles with 1 line unfortunately will be at the bottom of the monitor. Nothing can be done about it, not even turning the madvr option for "bottom" back on. Movies and shows that aren't 16:9 will have black bars which is why this situation of subtitle moving or lack thereof may not always be noticed if all your content is exclusively 16:9.

So, I have another stupid edge case bug to warn you about in Windows 10 with madvr. If you are using dxva2 copy-back and have exclusive mode turned on (and yes for good measure i also have "disable full-screen optimisations" checked in the player's windows file properties) do not have "frames in advance" selected in madvr options for both windowed mode (which is where your playback begins first) and exclusive mode. If you have frames in advance selected for both, what happens is that something gets stuck with the gpu load, it is higher than it should be when in windowed mode and remains higher when you switch into fullscreen exclusive. Windowed mode needs to have frames in advance unchecked, and it's ok to use frames in advance for exclusive. If you have the two separate, one with backbuffers and the other with frames in advance, then the gpu load will be ok for both and not get stuck at a higher utilization. Unfortunately, there is no benefit in using backbuffers for exclusive also, because it will be higher gpu usage than with frames in advance. It doesn't make sense to me that windowed mode uses lower gpu with backbuffers and exclusive is lower with frames, but you can't have both set to the same thing at the same time, or that if you reverse the options and make windowed frames, and exclusive backbuffers then both will have higher gpu usage.

What can you do? There is no such thing as a perfectly implemented player anywhere, always edge case bugs and glitches. Even Microsoft's Movies & TV (Films & TV) player which is backed by a huge corporation has the following annoyances that I have noticed: subtitles are unable to show outlines, everything else works just not the option to choose outline, raised, etc. so you have to live with subtitles that have no separation from the video unless you are willing to accept a black bar behind it. It cannot play AC3/E-AC3 audio. It cannot play 10-bit anime files. It does however have the best lower power consumption which is important to know about if you're running off batteries for awhile.
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Old 30th July 2021, 12:03   #61803  |  Link
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You are using a 4 year old version of MPC-HC. Latest one is 1.9.14.

If you want subs below video, then simply disable the option in MPC-HC to render relative to the video frame. Then it will render relative to window. Or semi-checked (= default) which means relative to window for normal subs, and relative to video for anime stuff.
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Old 30th July 2021, 16:09   #61804  |  Link
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the new interface can move text only and does not move typeset and such.

what so ever a device with dead driver should not be considered as the general state of things.
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Old 30th July 2021, 18:19   #61805  |  Link
ashlar42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
No, something is wrong there. Are you SURE your LG is set to low? Because it absolutely should be Limited, FULL, Limited (madvr, gpu, display).
Sorry for quoting an old post but I just wanted to double check on this.

While this works fine, and I understand it's the best choice (no scaling during color conversion YCbCr-->RGB), is it normal to have crushed blacks on desktop applications, right?
It's not a problem, as I can select a different picture mode (maybe Game) when I need to play a game (and have Black Level set to Full for that picture mode) but I just want to be sure that it's normal for that to happen.

Thanks.

Edit: for people curious about this, I find this post to be quite informative https://kodi.wiki/view/Video_levels_and_color_space
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Last edited by ashlar42; 30th July 2021 at 21:59.
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Old 30th July 2021, 19:07   #61806  |  Link
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Yes, it's expected.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunspark View Post
Windowed mode needs to have frames in advance unchecked, and it's ok to use frames in advance for exclusive. [...] Unfortunately, there is no benefit in using backbuffers for exclusive also, because it will be higher gpu usage than with frames in advance. It doesn't make sense to me that windowed mode uses lower gpu with backbuffers and exclusive is lower with frames, but you can't have both set to the same thing at the same time, or that if you reverse the options and make windowed frames, and exclusive backbuffers then both will have higher gpu usage.
I think those observations are highly specific to your iGPU. I've tested every combination just out of curiosity, with both DXVA scaling and madVR shaders scaling, and there is 0 difference between backbuffers and presented frames in advance on my GeForce and my legacy Radeon. Exclusive mode has a very small GPU usage advantage on the Radeon but it's 14% Vs. 18% at best which isn't worth the inconvenience.
Also, if you're going to use DXVA chroma & image scaling anyway, you may as well not use madVR at all except if you need some specific misc. feature.
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Last edited by el Filou; 30th July 2021 at 19:37.
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Old 30th July 2021, 19:30   #61807  |  Link
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the kodi page is incomplete the range is 16-235 for luma and 16-240 for chroma.

so the argument ycbcr -> rgb limited doesn't need a level conversation is invalid.

the fact that ycbcr to limited and to full are float point operation and can be done directly and even have existing coefficients to do it directly so there is no scaling.
https://mymusing.co/bt-709-yuv-to-rgb-conversion-color/

there is one exception that's black white Y only to RGB (test pattern) where the limited conversation is lossless no dithering needed i guess that's the reason they don't dither with limited range even through it's just wrong...

the recommended levels are still full full full.
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/mad...#post-23457822
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Old 30th July 2021, 19:58   #61808  |  Link
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I'm not sure about that, if you use an sdr 3dlut:
- full, full, full: clips whiter than white (wtw)
- limited, full, limited: passing through wtw

You can try it with white clipping pattern form avshd bt709 set.
I still use full, full, full, because I didn't create a 3dlut for the other one, but I have set limited, full, limited for HDR10 otput.
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Old 30th July 2021, 20:11   #61809  |  Link
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3D lut can be bugged with madVR if they come from displaycal/argyllCMS.

WTW and BTB can go crazy.
there is a fix clipping btb and wtw but madshi says it should be fixed in displaycal/argyllcms and they say wtw or btb as input is not allowed and should be clipped neither fixed it.
try a clipping shader.

this has nothing to do with out put level the 2D LUT will still do 100 % the same it's just with showing wtw and btb you can see heavy artifacts.

if that's even the issue you are talking about.
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Old 30th July 2021, 21:16   #61810  |  Link
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Good question, not sure, I would have to create one 3dlut for limited to see whether it behaves the same or not. But if you have a full 3dlut for madvr (created by displaycal) then you can quickly try it out.
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Old 30th July 2021, 21:25   #61811  |  Link
huhn
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if it is the same issue i may not be affected at all.

even if you create a limited range LUT madVR still feeds WTW or BTB and that compromised by something like the chroma scaler or even image scaler and it is not able to output it. it's not made for it. it should never be feeding it into a 3D LUT with limited or full range output.

BTW. the 3D LUT doesn't at all it's always limited range as input and just to stop the confusion this is irrelevant for output ranges.

edit: my current 3D LUT does not seem to expose the issue. it's hard to judge with the coating of this TV...

Last edited by huhn; 30th July 2021 at 21:32.
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Old 30th July 2021, 21:56   #61812  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
the recommended levels are still full full full.
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/mad...#post-23457822
Quoting from here: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/col.../post-60916211

LGs are consumer's TVs, and everything in the consumer area works in the legal video signal (64-940) but without clipping WTW (according to SDR standards).

Internal LUT is working in video legal extended (64-1023), so it's covering/calibrating even the WTW.

WTW = headroom = above 100% Reference White, until 109% SuperWhite.


So this could be specific to LG OLEDs internal 3D lut, I don't know, but Ted knows his calibration stuff.
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Old 30th July 2021, 22:16   #61813  |  Link
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It is an LG quirk, yes. Sorry was out today and just now saw that you quoted my post. This information ONLY applies to LG OLED (or possibly other displays but in this case and what was quoted I was talking about LG specifically). Ideally FULL, FULL, FULL is what you want. But LG does NOT handle FULL correctly. They aren't really expecting consumer devices to send it so I don't think they put a lot of effort around its support. I mean, it works, but, it doesn't look correct. That's why I recommend limited, full, limited (madvr, gpu, LG) to get the cleanest picture from these OLEDs. That being said, if you are using YCbCr, that's going to be limited on the GPU so you'd likely want madvr set to full in that case. That's currently how I'm running mine, as well. It's wildly wrong but these OLED panels don't give us great options.
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Old 30th July 2021, 22:27   #61814  |  Link
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that's a very specific topic to a display not a general statement which kodi wiki got wrong.
first of all OLED does not technically lose CR when you make WTW visible.
so you could use a full range signal with madVR set to custom white at 235 so a range of 0-235 without loosing a single bit of CR (in theory) and still getting wtw which has content in it (but there shouldn't be).

at least on my CX auto levels are bugged so i can't switch between a full range signal and a limited range signal. next issue is a device may create banding in full range RGB mode but not in YCbCr or RGB limited mode that doesn't make RGB full worse in general but the TV is just buggy. and this seems to reflect on the fact that LG processes WTW and you can calibrate it. you can just clip it and never have to deal with it again.

the spec for conversation are clear and they are watched at full range RGB that's just how a display works.

what so ever i need to first read through context of this post and the specific flaws of LG OLEDS.
and i'm not willing to do that i simply don't care enough and it's not enough to invalided a general statement.

TVs not clipping WTW is very common and it's also very common to make it visible with some setting combination which on LCD destroy CR.
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Old 30th July 2021, 22:41   #61815  |  Link
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Thanks guys, did not want to derail the conversation. I initially simply asked if what I was seeing in desktop programs was normal. It is and all is good. Cheers!
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Old 30th July 2021, 22:46   #61816  |  Link
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Without a doubt the general statement of full, full, full being the correct path absolutely stands. I never disputed that nor would I. It's just the LG's and their stupid quirks that cause us to tread off the beaten path. I said very clearly what I do is NOT correct from a general perspective. I do it to avoid banding and other stupid problems that I see when I try to send RGB to my C8. So, anyone looking at my comments and sitting there with a "wtf" expression on their face, please understand I'm NOT talking about generally. LG specific.
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Old 30th July 2021, 23:02   #61817  |  Link
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I am back to limited on my CX as well, it simply isn't possible to calibrate full range on these LG OLED's as well as limited range (banding, especially near black).

At least PC mode (444 chroma) is pretty good now.

But I also agree, Full - Full - Full is preferred, assuming the display handles full range properly.
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Old 31st July 2021, 06:57   #61818  |  Link
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Yep, that's why I have chosen to stick my set in PC mode permanently, with a full range chain and just have done with it.
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Old 31st July 2021, 10:14   #61819  |  Link
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I have just given up on PC mode entirely... HDR Banding is just too much of a deal breaker.

So for my C8, I just leave the HDMI on normal and run a Full-Full-Full setup. I did extensive testing and it is the simplest set-it-and-forget-it option.

Game of Thrones "The Long Night" is a great HDR banding test... the first scenes where Dani rides in on the Dragon and the fire on the inky black night... then shortly after that, when Jon rides away and looks back... If needed I can find the actually timestamps...

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Old 31st July 2021, 11:27   #61820  |  Link
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That being said, if you are using YCbCr, that's going to be limited on the GPU so you'd likely want madvr set to full in that case. That's currently how I'm running mine, as well.
I don't understand your setup. I think I am going with madVR limited, Nvidia RGB full, OLED limited.

Where does YCbCr enter the picture and why?
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