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Old 1st February 2019, 18:51   #54541  |  Link
el Filou
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Originally Posted by Soxbrother View Post
I'm using a HP Pavilion 300-030nb with Intel HD Graphics 4400 onboard and 4gb Ram and i3 processor.
What is your screen definition? 4 GB isn't a lot for madVR with integrated graphics. Depending on the settings, VRAM usage can already take around 500 MB even for 1080p. 4K would take a bit more than 2 GB, leaving less than 2 GB for the OS and applications. Maybe your system is struggling from lack of RAM?
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Old 1st February 2019, 20:02   #54542  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
Good point, at least for the displays that can reach more than 1000nits in HDR and support dynamic tonemapping with HDR10 content (not many). I keep forgetting indeed how poorly designed flat panels are in that they don't allow to reach peak brightness in a non HDR mode. I guess in that case users are stuck with a driver that can passthrough the correct metadata, until MS/nVidia/Madshi can correct this. Here, only 385.28 allows this, although 388.16 (the default driver installed by MS when detecting the GPU) seems to passthrough metadata correctly too, contrary to what I reported yesterday. Some are reporting more recent drivers working with passthrough, it might be dependent on GPU models and bit depth.

However, if I had an OLED in a dedicated room, I would much rather use MadVR's dynamic tonemapping and dynamic targets with a peak brightness of 400nits than the display's static tonemapping at 600nits+. So I stand by what I said, which applies to most current displays.

If there are displays that do dynamic tonemapping and dynamic targets with HDR10 content (given that HDR10+ isn't supported on UHD Bluray), I'd like to know which ones, because I'm not aware of any, although that's probably off topic.
My C8 does dynamic tone mapping. I combine it with madvr's and set a target of 700. What little tonemapping that needs to be done is done by madvr and passed to the tv. In theory the TV's dynamic tonemapping wouldn't need to do anything because it should be under the max nits for the display. This is what I've been using for a while now and absolutely love the results I get.

EDIT: Yes, I see your reply about dynamic targets above...
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Last edited by SamuriHL; 1st February 2019 at 20:10.
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Old 1st February 2019, 20:06   #54543  |  Link
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Originally Posted by blu3wh0 View Post
I've found that the best middle ground for OLEDs is to use the madVR tone mapping with pixel shaders outputting in HDR for a peak of 700 nits. SDR loses too much peak brightness for HDR (400 nits max) and the LG dynamic tone mapping can actually completely destroy dark scenes since it raises the overall black level. See the 2001 Space Odyssey star scene and watch as stars disappear with dynamic tone mapping. There are also some differences in color between LG and madVR, where I think madVR looks more correct. LG's dynamic tone mapping also handles 4000 nit movies rather poorly, at least on my B7. Whether there is a double tone mapping effect between madVR and the LG for this config, I don't know, but it clearly looks more accurate doing this.
I agree, it definitely is an improvement even if there is a "double tonemapping" effect going on. And that's exactly how I drive my setup and it's been amazing so far!
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Old 1st February 2019, 20:21   #54544  |  Link
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
I agree, it definitely is an improvement even if there is a "double tonemapping" effect going on. And that's exactly how I drive my setup and it's been amazing so far!
I suggest you don't use LG's dynamic tone mapping at all, as I mentioned above, it does much more harm than good. I used it in the beginning as well because I had to in order to watch 4000 nit content at all before madshi fixed the HDR output for pixel shaders, but it's definitely not needed now.
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Old 1st February 2019, 21:55   #54545  |  Link
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I've gone back and forth on that one. madshi theorized that with dynamic on it wouldn't need to do as much of its own tone mapping on top of what madvr does. With the latest LG firmware they fixed a few of the issues I saw so it's definitely better, but, I'll do some more testing with it off and see if there's a big difference.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 00:10   #54546  |  Link
Warner306
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I really don't get why people keep praising LG's dynamic tone mapping. It's terrible and I don't ever use it. It behaves almost like a dynamic contrast setting where it brightens up most non-bright scenes that wouldn't need any tone mapping at all. I guess a more fitting term would be "bright room mode" instead of dynamic tone mapping.
Dynamic tone mapping is supposed to look similar to this. Scenes that are below the source peak get some relief from tone mapping, which will make them appear brighter as they follow PQ curve more closely. The other scenes that seem darker are probably being tone mapped. The 2018 models should be following the PQ curve in the 0-100 nits region, mostly to fix the raised blacks issue from the 2017 models. They are known to track the curve properly from the factory.

I would think you would get the best results by leaving dynamic tone mapping enabled. Using a static curve will provide no relief from tone mapping for the entire movie. This would only make sense if the display disabled its tone mapping when confronted with metadata that indicates the source is within the display's brightness. But dynamic tone mapping should already do this without needing any metadata.

I've seen some spectacular HDR on a 2018 LG OLED, so I have no reason to bash it's tone mapping.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 00:15   #54547  |  Link
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That's why I currently have it enabled in my setup. There was some DEFINITE issues in previous firmware versions that seem to be fixed now. Since then I've not seen any real issues with dynamic enabled and using madvr tonemapping set to a 700 target nit. It looks fantastic to me. But then again, I don't proclaim to be an expert in this area. I'm still constantly learning and I've been playing with this since last summer.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 01:57   #54548  |  Link
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Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
What is your screen definition? 4 GB isn't a lot for madVR with integrated graphics. Depending on the settings, VRAM usage can already take around 500 MB even for 1080p. 4K would take a bit more than 2 GB, leaving less than 2 GB for the OS and applications. Maybe your system is struggling from lack of RAM?
Watching on a 4k tv. Resolution off course is set to 38402160 on a Samsung UE55JS9000.
In MadVR I've set the scaling settings to 1080p23

It's only the beginning of the file that has a delay, the rest plays normal. If my system would struggle, shouldn't it struggle with the whole file ? Weird that it struggles in the beginning of it then.

Then I would rather have it that after the delay it starts playing from 00:00:00 audio and video.
Now it's audio after 5s and audio+video after 10s
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Old 2nd February 2019, 02:14   #54549  |  Link
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you are changing the refreshrate and the resolution by doing this your TV has to "resync"(it's the wrong word but whatever) and the time this takes is defined by your TV maybe AVR not really madVR.

a normal PC monitor can do this in about a sec or even less. TV and even worse projectors can take a long time like 5-20 secs.

a workaround would be leaving the screen at 1080p23
using a player that can start a file paused and enter fullscreen before you play.

using FSE can add even more blackscreen.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 11:40   #54550  |  Link
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you are changing the refreshrate and the resolution by doing this your TV has to "resync"(it's the wrong word but whatever) and the time this takes is defined by your TV maybe AVR not really madVR.

a normal PC monitor can do this in about a sec or even less. TV and even worse projectors can take a long time like 5-20 secs.

a workaround would be leaving the screen at 1080p23
using a player that can start a file paused and enter fullscreen before you play.

using FSE can add even more blackscreen.
Ok. Thanks for the info.

So I guess Mediaportal doesn't have such a function then ?

Anyway here's the link to the exact problem I have.
And people saying with another version they didn't have the problem.

http://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=479
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Old 2nd February 2019, 11:58   #54551  |  Link
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did you try something simply like disabling FSE?
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Old 2nd February 2019, 12:24   #54552  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Dynamic tone mapping is supposed to look similar to this. Scenes that are below the source peak get some relief from tone mapping, which will make them appear brighter as they follow PQ curve more closely. The other scenes that seem darker are probably being tone mapped. The 2018 models should be following the PQ curve in the 0-100 nits region, mostly to fix the raised blacks issue from the 2017 models. They are known to track the curve properly from the factory.

I would think you would get the best results by leaving dynamic tone mapping enabled. Using a static curve will provide no relief from tone mapping for the entire movie. This would only make sense if the display disabled its tone mapping when confronted with metadata that indicates the source is within the display's brightness. But dynamic tone mapping should already do this without needing any metadata.

I've seen some spectacular HDR on a 2018 LG OLED, so I have no reason to bash it's tone mapping.
Not sure I'm getting what you're trying to say. Isn't tonemapping only needed because of TVs having a too low peak brightness?
As far as I know mastering monitors don't do any tonemapping, so non-bright scenes should look similar to what I see with dynamic tonemapping disabled.
Then why would it be a good thing to brighten up darker scenes?

I did a small test to see how much LGs dynamic tonemapping messes with non-bright scenes.
I just displayed a 50 nits movie scene in the background while running a grayscale sweep in HCFR.
The result shows exactly what my eyes have been seeing when using LGs dynamic tonemapping. Large deviations from the PQ, even in the lower range. With it turned off it at least follows it nicely up to like 125 nits.

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Old 2nd February 2019, 13:42   #54553  |  Link
Soxbrother
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
did you try something simply like disabling FSE?
I've just checked and it's disabled already, so that is not the solution.

I'm going to try if this maybe make a difference :

In the Devices section under the "Generic PnP Monitor", you can choose "Display modes"
and the current setting is : Switch to matching display mode...when playback starts

So maybe it makes a difference when I choose ...when media player goes fullscreen ?

I'll try it in a moment and will post the result

For now I'll leave the "restore original display mode...when mediaplayer is closed" as it is.

I've just checked and I'm using MadVR 0.92.17, that's the latest version, right ?


Update : Nothing changed, I had hoped, that would do something

Last edited by Soxbrother; 2nd February 2019 at 13:54.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 14:12   #54554  |  Link
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I've adjusted the resolution of my 4ktv to 1920x1080, now the video starts almost instantly.
I've also disabled the "Switch to matching display mode" setting, because it has no use now.

But now I'm wondering if the video would look better at it's native 1080p resolution
or if it would look better even on the 4k resolution.

Any thoughts on that ?
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Old 2nd February 2019, 14:29   #54555  |  Link
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New problem : inside Mediaportal, the font size is too big ( windows screen settings is at 150%)
Now when I set it at 100%, everything is as it should be, but now I only hear audio and have no video,
What to do now ?
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Old 2nd February 2019, 15:26   #54556  |  Link
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Originally Posted by j82k View Post
Not sure I'm getting what you're trying to say. Isn't tonemapping only needed because of TVs having a too low peak brightness?
As far as I know mastering monitors don't do any tonemapping, so non-bright scenes should look similar to what I see with dynamic tonemapping disabled.
Then why would it be a good thing to brighten up darker scenes?

I did a small test to see how much LGs dynamic tonemapping messes with non-bright scenes.
I just displayed a 50 nits movie scene in the background while running a grayscale sweep in HCFR.
The result shows exactly what my eyes have been seeing when using LGs dynamic tonemapping. Large deviations from the PQ, even in the lower range. With it turned off it at least follows it nicely up to like 125 nits.
You could be right, but I don't know if your test is accurate. If it is the newest model, it would be less likely the display would be deviating from the curve. Your graph would show raised blacks rather than true black in many scenes because it is lifting the bottom of the curve. That isn't supposed to be the case, unless the display is trying to compensate for poor near black response.

You are somewhat misunderstanding how a static tone curve works. The display will take the static metadata value (usually 1,000 nits mastering peak or 4,000 nits mastering peak) and plot a single tone curve for the entire movie. That curve never changes; it is static, so the entire movie will roll-off the brightness depending on the aggressiveness of the chosen curve. In other words, the whole movie will be slightly darker than intended (tone mapped). There is no relief from this tone curve at any point. The display will follow the PQ curve up to a certain point and add a knee point where the roll-off begins.

A dynamic tone curve will use the source peak as the target for the tone curve, but it will decrease and increase the roll-off as the scene peak changes. So scenes within the brightness of the display (700 nits) can be shown 1:1 with the PQ curve because tone mapping is not required (tone mapping could be disabled or significantly reduced). Scenes that are close to the source peak should look similar to a static tone curve and would use a standard roll-off. The tone mapping roll-off is necessary to present the intended contrast of the scene to make it look HDR when the display lacks the necessary luminance to show all values within its available dynamic range. It is a no-no to go above the PQ curve at any time, but going below the PQ curve is what is considered tone mapping.

I think the area LG needs to improve upon compared to the competition is in blending these changes in brightness. They may be moving the knee point for the tone curve too often or are doing a poor job of fluctuating the roll-off. I haven't heard of any accounts from the reviews I've read of the display boosting the brightness above the PQ curve. The only display that I know does that is the Samsung Q9FN, which consistently boosts 0-100 nits.

madVR is also using a dynamic tone curve with brightness changes, but those changes may be masked better. However, the fluctuations in brightness will be more noticeable when using a range of 0-700 nits than 0-120 nits, so dynamic tone mapping on a bright display can always be capable of some visible shifts in brightness. This is done to keep the image as bright as possible throughout the presentation inline with the original mastered values. No one likes a dark image, so tone mapping compression should be minimized.

Last edited by Warner306; 2nd February 2019 at 16:09.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 16:40   #54557  |  Link
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It is a no-no to go above the PQ curve at any time, but going below the PQ curve is what is considered tone mapping.
But that is exactly what LG's dynamic tonemapping is doing for pretty much any scene that is below the TVs peak brightness. It heavily goes above the PQ curve and that why I think it's crap. It's like what samsung is doing.

And it's not even good at revealing otherwise clipped highlights. MadVR does a much better job at this.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 16:45   #54558  |  Link
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I don't think this is intended, but it could be doing some monkey business with the source, or you need an HDR calibration. Like I said, the newer the model, the better. Panasonic and Sony are known to be better at this.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 17:10   #54559  |  Link
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I did a small test to see how much LGs dynamic tonemapping messes with non-bright scenes.
Thanks for the graphs! Which LG TV is it?
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Originally Posted by j82k View Post
I really don't get why people keep praising LG's dynamic tone mapping. It's terrible and I don't ever use it. It behaves almost like a dynamic contrast setting
It seems exactly like the "dynamic contrast" for SDR TVs
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Old 2nd February 2019, 17:45   #54560  |  Link
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A final issue with a lot of displays, specifically home TVs, is the manufacturers deliberately deviating from the HDR specification, in an attempt to generate what they view as 'better' images.

This obviously means the same source footage will be seen very differently on different displays, even if the displays are defined as being 'calibrated'.

However, this issue is actually something we have sympathy for, because as mentioned previously above, the PQ HDR specification is flawed, as the standard is 'absolute', and includes no option to increase the display's light output to overcome surrounding room light levels. The result is that in less than ideal viewing environments, where the surrounding room brightness level is relatively high, the bulk of the HDR image will appear very dark, with shadow detail potentially becoming very difficult to see.

Many home TV manufacturers therefore deliberately 'distort' the PQ HDR EOTF (gamma curve) to attempt to overcome this issue.
https://www.lightillusion.com/uhdtv.html
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