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14th November 2024, 19:27 | #22 | Link |
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You're right: I answered how, but not why. I admit it's a challenging one. If we deny that the cell has any rudimentary agency, it boils down to the mechanism; there is a mechanism and it moves. We then ask, where does the mechanism come from? And this takes us to the ultimate riddle on the origin of life.
On the other hand, if we imagine there is some form of "agency"---and as we see elsewhere in our bodies, various cells have scripted behaviour quite apart from "us"---then we could say that it "knows" it must get the food and does so, according to some script. But this leads us back to the earlier question on the origin. |
15th November 2024, 11:32 | #25 | Link | |
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I am of the opinion that even with the most precise knowledge of the circumstances, it is NOT possible to predict exactly where the next movement of a living being will be directed, and this - I believe - has nothing to do with quantum phenomena (although on a smaller scale all life has a lot to do with it), but with something that still awaits a more precise explanation. This difference to non-living material makes a lot of difference, but at first glance it doesn't have that much to do with the difference between biologically based intelligence and A. I. But ultimately it does (I think), but this is really twice off topic, sorry. (Translated with DeepL) |
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16th November 2024, 14:04 | #26 | Link | |
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16th November 2024, 18:02 | #27 | Link | |
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In the end, it could simply be that the overwhelming complexity of an organism and its environment renders prediction impractical. But if impossible in principle, it would be good to ask, where exactly does the impossibility come in? Is it non-computable; quantum probability; or something outside the universe, inaccessible from within? (Though the latter goes into the realms of metaphysics.) |
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18th November 2024, 11:40 | #28 | Link | |||
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I am sorry too to keep somehow off-topic, but hope we will find mercy with our little discussion.
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It is a supposedly simple system, but due to the above property it is actually inaccurate, this is the chaos-theory-trick with it. In principle, however, the (inanimate) universe remains deterministic, even if there are double-bar pendulums in it. The WILL of a living being is something completely different, located at a much higher level of complexity. It is unpredictable for completely different reasons. Yes, exactly. Quote:
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- not computable - not a phenomenon based on quantum mechanics, as it is located far above the level of any quantum decoherence - nor is it something that requires metaphysics or even God I simply believe that we are dealing here with something truly unexplored, but which is very much part of this world and can very well be explained in the future (although "explain" is a very difficult word...), and what in the end makes a huge difference between our biological kind of intelligence and A. I. |
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18th November 2024, 13:41 | #29 | Link |
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Whatever WILL is, my point is actually not related to WILL itself.
You made it sounds like "being unpredictable == having will", I disgree with that. I think single cell living is unpredictable because of the chaos theory, although it's probably trillions times more complex than a double-rod pendulum. (OR DOES IT? Does double-rod pendulum have WILL? Can we even prove it not?) Oh guys, please stop arguing around the (currently) UNKNOWABLE. Last edited by Z2697; 18th November 2024 at 13:45. |
18th November 2024, 19:42 | #30 | Link | ||||
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And I did really not say or mean: "being unpredictable == having will", rather "having will == being unpredictable", but I didn't say that either. I had said: A biological organism is unpredictable even if all known variables are known. And neither because of chaos theory nor for quantum mechanical reasons. I later used the term "will" as a possible reason for this. No more and no less. I just wanted to give my opinion on a possible difference why A. I. might differ from biologically evolved intelligence, and what reasons there might be for this. Quote:
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I just found Geoffrey's points very interesting and have tried to post a small part of mine here. Quote:
And: why? A: I. is one of the most fascinating topics of our time and influences so many things also in the video sector that the discussion doesn't even seem very off-topic to me. Last edited by Frank62; 18th November 2024 at 19:46. |
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18th November 2024, 20:03 | #31 | Link | |
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Your "WILL" is just various chemical reactions in your brain. If all variables are known it would be predictable like a clock.
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18th November 2024, 20:35 | #33 | Link | ||
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But I think that's really going too far here. Quote:
But there are - quite obviously to me - variables in living organisms that are NOT limited to (anyway Heisenberg fuzzy) particles and their movements, and these remain UNKNOWN as long as ... well... nothing exact is known about them. Last edited by Frank62; 7th December 2024 at 11:11. |
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19th November 2024, 08:21 | #34 | Link |
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Roger Penrose has maintained that there is a non-algorithmic or non-computable basis to consciousness. This seems similar, Frank, to what you are terming "will." If we were to boil it down to its essentials, this would mean that will causes the movement of particles that cannot be predicted from the previous state (but is, possibly, determined by it and leaving out quantum reasons). If this were true, especially the determinism part, it would mean that our will is an illusion, is determined, but cannot be predicted.
I am of the opinion that consciousness is mechanistic (or "materialistic") and doesn't require the exotic qualities we are describing here. However, we know so little and I am quite open to there being more than meets the eye. For one, consciousness seems intimately tied to time, the nature of which is still a mystery in physics. Understanding time may well resolve many of these questions. It could well be that the missing, non-quantum, non-computable physics under discussion in this thread resolves the tension between quantum mechanics and general relativity. I think particles and waves are mere approximations, from the space-time point of view, of deeper entities. QM has partly hit on their rules but the picture is not complete. (The missing theory would solve the measurement problem and account for the domain where the crossing over from quantum to classical happens.) Last edited by GeoffreyA; 19th November 2024 at 09:00. |
19th November 2024, 14:31 | #35 | Link | ||
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That would be of course wonderful and fascinating. I think that if we really want to fundamentally broaden our horizons, we need a completely different view of what is, i.e. a different perspective, a different model. Above all, this has to do with INFORMATION and an informational view and approach. Last edited by Frank62; 7th December 2024 at 11:13. |
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19th November 2024, 16:29 | #36 | Link | |
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If everything is deterministic, free will is illusory. We are set on a course but have the perception that we choose. Similarly, if there is non-determinism because of a random quality in Nature, we still do not choose.
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* (The EPR phenomenon demonstrates, to me, that distance, or space, is not fundamental. Those entangled particles have their existence in a pre-spatial realm.) Last edited by GeoffreyA; 19th November 2024 at 16:39. |
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20th November 2024, 00:47 | #38 | Link | |
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Here your sentence is un-oxymoroned: A biological organism is unpredictable even if some variables are known.
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20th November 2024, 18:47 | #39 | Link |
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Could it be that you meant "pleonastic"? Oxymoronic requires opposites rather than overlapping doublings.
I had all this translated by DeepL (now again) so as not to be misunderstood once in this forum - unfortunately it didn't help. I should check the translation next time so that readers as accurate as you don't have any problems reading it. The second "unknown" originally meant (in German) the value of the variable, the first "unknown" meant the variable itself. In connection with "unknown", the "unknown value of variables" is often incorrectly (if you take it as accurately as you do) expressed as "unknown variables". So my point here was that: 1. not everything is known that could be variable in the context 2. of the variables that are known (researched), their value is also known In context: Even if you know all THE conditions that ARE PHYSICALLY KNOWN AND RESEARCHED at a point in time before a thought, it is possible that other variables that ARE NOT KNOWN will throw a spanner in the works, and you can not predict. However, since your friendly comment was meant purely destructive anyway, probably intended to express contempt, you are in a way right, in that your intention was successful. Thank you. These things always hurt exactly then, when you know that they come from intelligent people who really know something. Translated with DeepL.com (free version) |
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