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Old 17th May 2023, 08:09   #31501  |  Link
Lathe
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Originally Posted by MrVideo View Post
OK, you were getting 20 fps results from 25 fps because you were doing IVTC to the video. 25 fps video doesn't have 2:3 pulldown, ever. The TFM().TDecimate() line needs to go away.
Oh wow, really...? Heh... I must've misunderstood what Sharc suggested I do then. How strange... I thought the IVTC was what was helping with all that combing and stuff.

I have a lot to learn... Well, it will be interesting to remove those lines and see how it looks. Thanks mate!

***EDIT

Yep, you are right! (Wow, twice in a row! )

The resulting frame rate is now 25. The video doesn't really look that different in motion for that first minute or so. I tried going back and forth between the encode with the IVTC and without and I couldn't see any difference other than changing the frame rate according to MediaInfo.

Well hmmm... I'll still need to see what I can do though to reduce that ghosting and combing. I have NO bloody idea what the parameters of the TComb line are doing, I just pasted an example script. So, should I change those values, will that help with the combing and stuff? Is there another plugin/script I should try to reduce that, because if I can get rid of more of that that would help. Just softening it though seems to have helped with that. I remember one encode where I had both the TemporalSoften and the Denoise cranked up, and it looked REALLY smooth and clean, but almost no detail

What to do... Well, at least my different plugins are mostly working now.

Last edited by Lathe; 17th May 2023 at 08:26.
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Old 17th May 2023, 11:43   #31502  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Lathe View Post
Oh wow, really...? Heh... I must've misunderstood what Sharc suggested I do then. How strange... I thought the IVTC was what was helping with all that combing and stuff.
IVTC = InVerse TeleCine
It removes the 2:3 pulldown used to get 23.976 fps video to play at 29.97 fps, i.e. 2:3 pulldown telecine..

In order to cheaply get 23.976/24 fps video to play at 25 fps, the video is sped up by 4%. If the audio isn't fixed, it will have a pitch change. By using an expensive commercial standards converter, the 23.976 video is converted to 25 fps without a pitch change. But, in doing so, there is frame blending involved.
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The resulting frame rate is now 25. The video doesn't really look that different in motion for that first minute or so. I tried going back and forth between the encode with the IVTC and without and I couldn't see any difference other than changing the frame rate according to MediaInfo.
Out of every 5 frames, you should see a dropped/missing frame, which is why it became 20 fps.
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I'll still need to see what I can do though to reduce that ghosting and combing. I have NO bloody idea what the parameters of the TComb line are doing, I just pasted an example script. So, should I change those values, will that help with the combing and stuff? Is there another plugin/script I should try to reduce that, because if I can get rid of more of that that would help. Just softening it though seems to have helped with that. I remember one encode where I had both the TemporalSoften and the Denoise cranked up, and it looked REALLY smooth and clean, but almost no detail
Instead of trying to find it, it there a link to a piece of the original 25 fps video?

My guess is that it is 25p and not 50i. Decombing only really works on interlaced video as it is working with two separate fields in order to create a new frame. If the video is progressive, there are no fields to work with. Since I never do any decombing, you'd have find a filter that will take the progressive frame and create two interlaced fields and then do the decombing. I do not know if there is a filter setting for progressive vs interlaced sources.

Since appears to be a very cheaply produced video, it is very possible they took a 29.97 2:3 pulldown video and converted it to 25 fps. Blending of frames would be a result.

I'd have to look at a file containing several minutes of the video.

Last edited by MrVideo; 17th May 2023 at 13:30.
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Old 19th May 2023, 03:50   #31503  |  Link
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Originally Posted by MrVideo View Post
IVTC = InVerse TeleCine
It removes the 2:3 pulldown used to get 23.976 fps video to play at 29.97 fps, i.e. 2:3 pulldown telecine..

In order to cheaply get 23.976/24 fps video to play at 25 fps, the video is sped up by 4%. If the audio isn't fixed, it will have a pitch change. By using an expensive commercial standards converter, the 23.976 video is converted to 25 fps without a pitch change. But, in doing so, there is frame blending involved.

Out of every 5 frames, you should see a dropped/missing frame, which is why it became 20 fps.

Instead of trying to find it, it there a link to a piece of the original 25 fps video?

My guess is that it is 25p and not 50i. Decombing only really works on interlaced video as it is working with two separate fields in order to create a new frame. If the video is progressive, there are no fields to work with. Since I never do any decombing, you'd have find a filter that will take the progressive frame and create two interlaced fields and then do the decombing. I do not know if there is a filter setting for progressive vs interlaced sources.

Since appears to be a very cheaply produced video, it is very possible they took a 29.97 2:3 pulldown video and converted it to 25 fps. Blending of frames would be a result.

I'd have to look at a file containing several minutes of the video.
Good explanation, thanks mate!

Yes, I think you are right because there is some kind of 'ghosting'(what looks like combing) going on. And yes the original HD video is encoded at 25 fps. It was kind of funny though that with the 2 softeners/denoisers cranked up, everything looked pretty damn smooth But, I have a feeling that I am only going to be able to get it to look so 'good' because of the original crappy encoding that was done.

You honestly CAN see though through all the crap that the basics underneath it do look quite a bit better than the absolutely washed out, though 'properly' encoded DVD. But, when you look at the DVD, the underlying substance is so weak that there is nothing much to work with. It's kind of like it's been watered down about 50% from the basic information in the HD print. Colours, definition, saturation, contrast. There is just more 'there' there in the HD print, thus my wanting to 'fix' the HD encode the best I can.

I will post a link to about a 5 minute snippet of the original video (I think my first post was only about 20 seconds) but it is going to be about 350 Megs, so if you don't mind downloading that. But yeah, I would LOVE to see what you think could be done with it. All I've been doing is shooting from the hip and guessing so far...

http://lathe-of-heaven.com/GCHD-001.mkv
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Old 19th May 2023, 06:50   #31504  |  Link
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Yep, that is a crappy conversion to HD @ 25 fps. It looks like it came from a VHS source.

They didn't bother to IVTC the source before converting to 25 fps, hence the 2:3 pulldown frames showing up with combing. And yes, their standards converter melded frames. All of which you will not be able to get rid of.

I'd be interested in seeing the first TOC file of the DVD. Since DVD files are only 1 GB in size, that would be just fine.
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Old 19th May 2023, 06:52   #31505  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Lathe View Post
Oh wow, really...? Heh... I must've misunderstood what Sharc suggested I do then. How strange... I thought the IVTC was what was helping with all that combing and stuff.
Sorry, you don't understand, do you?
I did IVTC the DVD version because it was telecined. IVTC is not a general tool to "help with all that combing and stuff".
The "HD" crap which you want to "fix" now is the work of a moron. It is no longer telecined, just totally borked. Ditch it.
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Old 19th May 2023, 12:14   #31506  |  Link
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I read your posts at VH, and Sharc is correct.
The DVD might be a better candidate for "improvement"
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Old 19th May 2023, 21:51   #31507  |  Link
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I don't need a copy of a DVD TOC file, as Sharc has already dug into the DVD.
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Old 20th May 2023, 07:14   #31508  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
Sorry, you don't understand, do you?
I did IVTC the DVD version because it was telecined. IVTC is not a general tool to "help with all that combing and stuff".
The "HD" crap which you want to "fix" now is the work of a moron. It is no longer telecined, just totally borked. Ditch it.
Heh, okay, okay, got it! I was just SO damn determined that I could do SOMETHING to make it look better, but I think I got as far as I could.

Sorry about that. I posted back about your code for the DVD that I could not call the Spotless or the Sharpen that you suggested. I got errors which I posted on VideoHelp. But yeah, I'm AM coming to the point where I'll try to work with the DVD now, thanks! I don't know if I'm quite onboard with the greyscale, but if I can get the Spotless/Sharpen working or something like it, then I can play around and see about that.

***EDIT

Okay, just ONE last gasp... (I promise, and I won't bring this up any more UNLESS you guys are so impressed that you just MIGHT have some more suggestions)

And then, I'll get to work on the DVD. But guys, honestly, in my stumbling around for the last week or so and hours and hours of trial and error (mostly error) I THINK I've got this li'l bugger looking pretty good, considering what I have to work with.

Now, please just take a quick look at this latest encode. I believe that SOMEHOW, God knows how, I've been able to get rid of a lot of the combing and crap, and I honestly think it looks quite a bit better. Tell me honestly what you think... Please forgive this ONE last attempt (Sharc) I KNOW I am industriously polishing a big turd, but it is my turd! (somehow that sounded better before I wrote it...)

Seriously, for this last time, tell me truthfully what you'all think - I think I could live with this. Here is the code I ended up using:

TComb(mode=2, fthreshC=6, othreshC=6)
DeNoise(getvar=false, var=120, evar=160, xgrid=5, ygrid=7)

vsMSharpen(threshold=2.0, strength=90.0, mask=false, luma=true, chroma=true)
WarpSharp(depth=128, blur=3, bump=128, cubic=0.6)


I noticed that after adding the WarpSharp (it was the only other sharpener I could get working...) the picture was looking more defined. I will research its settings to see if I can bump it up some more, but as it is, compared to what it was, I honestly think it isn't too bad...

Thanks too gonca and Mr.Video for all your help and input!

http://lathe-of-heaven.com/Encode002.mkv

***EDIT 2

Notice particularly the two close ups of Anthony Hopkins face around 1:30 and a few seconds later as he backs from the room.

Last edited by Lathe; 20th May 2023 at 08:02. Reason: More stuff...
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Old 20th May 2023, 12:48   #31509  |  Link
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Yep, you polished it
But it is still a turd (yours)
I've seen old up scaled DVDs look better
Work with the DVD
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Old 20th May 2023, 21:36   #31510  |  Link
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Plastic look (overfiltered), blurry, combing artefacts, horrible colors .......
You're wasting your time, but to each his own
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Old 25th May 2023, 04:45   #31511  |  Link
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You guys... Have some faith!

Well, FWIW I just got finished watching my highly polished turd. It is a damn good movie! Good ol' Levinson/Link and their brilliant convoluted Crime Thrillers (FWIW, a fairly obscure 1979 Telefilm called 'MURDER BY NATURAL CAUSES' that they did is even better than this one) I transfered (and polished it) many years ago to DVD. Great little film!

So, now that I've pretty much done the 'best' I could with the mangled HD print, I'm going to see what I can do with the DVD print. It's true that it doesn't have the multiple issues that the HD print has, but the print itself is SO washed out, especially if grey scaled, that honestly I think that would bother me in this particular case much more so than the weird issues with the HD print.

BUT... I do very much appreciate the input and help because it has helped me a lot to reacquaint myself with Avisynth and really helped me to get my plugins and all the supporting software in order. Actually, once I had my 'brilliant' AVS script put together, I did indeed drop it right into BDRB and had it do the encode. But, this time I used the Archive function which I should have used in the first place and everything came out pretty well considering...

I'll drop some screenshots here of what I ended up with. Other than flushed and waxy faces, I really don't think it turned out that bad. Also, watching it played as a Blu-ray through my OPPO player helped. I THINK it may have detected and incorporated more filters automatically in playback, thus perhaps helping some with any residual combing. On my ancient 50" Plasma though, it honestly looked pretty good.

This is the script I ended up using, purely by trial and error. I have like 3 strong sharpeners in a row, that was the best I could come up with, although I'm sure you guys could come up with better ones:

TComb(mode=2, fthreshC=6, othreshC=6)
DeNoise(getvar=false, var=120, evar=160, xgrid=5, ygrid=7)
vsMSharpen(threshold=2.0, strength=100.0, mask=false, luma=true, chroma=true)
LimitedSharpenFaster(strength=200, edgemode=0)
WarpSharp(depth=200, blur=3, bump=200, cubic=0.6)


For the most part, stationary surfaces came across very well, and overall I honestly didn't even notice any combing while watching the film. I think for this kind of 'Hip' 1985 Telefilm, the brighter and more robust presentation, although not the best, just seems to lend itself better than a more trouble free but super faded/washed out looking nearly B&W print - Now, if this were a Classic period 1940's Film Noir or something along those lines, that would be a completely different story of course.

It will be interesting (and hopefully instructive) now to start working on the DVD print just to see how 'good' I can get it to look. Maybe I will be surprised

A sincere 'Thank You' though for your guys' help and input, I'm still applying it as I go...










Last edited by Lathe; 25th May 2023 at 04:55.
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Old 25th May 2023, 08:20   #31512  |  Link
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Okay, I am working with the DVD print now. I am using Sharc's suggested settings, but without the Greyscale and using the FluxSmooth plugin because I can't seem to get Spotless running, and I can't get MDegrain working either, so I left off any sharpeners for now. So, here is a comparison (so far) of what I've got with the DVD and a similar snapshot of the 'finished' HD print. I guess I can see where maybe with some more saturation and if I can figure out a good sharpener, I MIGHT get a better result. But, just as is, you can see the darker outlines, the sharper delineation, and just the deeper, richer colours of the HD print (for now...) There just seems to be more 'substance' there...

DVD print:



'Processed' HD print:

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Old 25th May 2023, 08:25   #31513  |  Link
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Out of interest... What's the movie?
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Old 28th May 2023, 13:47   #31514  |  Link
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Old 28th May 2023, 15:53   #31515  |  Link
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Do you have the original of that snippet available? 20FPS looks a bit off.
I'd like to give it a try with AI support ;-)
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Old 28th May 2023, 22:30   #31516  |  Link
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Originally Posted by cartman0208 View Post
Do you have the original of that snippet available? 20FPS looks a bit off.
As pointed out in a posting, the 20fps was a result of doing IVTC on a video that didn't have 2:3 pulldown and was 25fps.
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Old 10th June 2023, 18:11   #31517  |  Link
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Just a note for anyone who has experienced an error when trying to import a file encoded with NVENCCRE into BD-RB to make a BD:

It is caused by a bug in MKVEXTRACT (a component of MKVTOOLNIX). It can be fixed by replacing MKVEXTRACT in the BD-RB TOOLS folder with the one in http://www.jdobbs.com/downloads/mkvextract.zip. I've tested this version and it works well with BD-RB.
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Last edited by jdobbs; 10th June 2023 at 21:52.
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Old 11th June 2023, 07:55   #31518  |  Link
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Thanks for the update.
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Old 16th June 2023, 10:40   #31519  |  Link
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Building ALTERNATE OUTPUT Structure - ERROR in attempt to mux (MKVMERGE)

Hello,

i have a Problem with BD Rebuilder v.0.61.28

I get always an the End this error:

[11:28:25]PHASE TWO - Rebuild Started
- [11:28:25] Building ALTERNATE OUTPUT Structure
- ERROR in attempt to mux (MKVMERGE)
[11:28:26] - Failed to REBUILD

Can anyone help me?

By the way, is BD Rebuilder still being updated and further developed? The last update was over a year ago. Will it eventually support QSVEnc and VCEEncC as well?

Thank you.
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Old 22nd June 2023, 11:30   #31520  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnexx View Post
[11:28:25]PHASE TWO - Rebuild Started
- [11:28:25] Building ALTERNATE OUTPUT Structure
- ERROR in attempt to mux (MKVMERGE)
[11:28:26] - Failed to REBUILD
Did you look at the latest posting from jdobbs about mkvmerge?
Quote:
By the way, is BD Rebuilder still being updated and further developed? The last update was over a year ago.
Sooner, or later, another update will happen.
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Will it eventually support QSVEnc and VCEEncC as well?
I seriously doubt it. Software encoders are extremely slow. Using hardware encoding is extremely fast and produces great results.
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